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	<title>Comments on: Do stats tell the story?</title>
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	<link>http://www.epltalk.com/do-stats-tell-the-story/1497</link>
	<description>Daily News &#38; Analysis of the English Premier League</description>
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		<title>By: TheScout</title>
		<link>http://www.epltalk.com/do-stats-tell-the-story/1497#comment-5622</link>
		<dc:creator>TheScout</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2008 15:06:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epltalk.com/do-stats-tell-the-story/#comment-5622</guid>
		<description>From what I&#039;ve read Opta has multiple spotters at each match that compile their statistics. Most sports stats services use a similar system where people are assigned to track specific things during the match and focus solely on those things. 

You don&#039;t have a situation where one person is trying to track passes, tackles, shots etc for both sides in an entire match. That would be a near impossible task for one person.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From what I’ve read Opta has multiple spotters at each match that compile their statistics. Most sports stats services use a similar system where people are assigned to track specific things during the match and focus solely on those things. </p>
<p>You don’t have a situation where one person is trying to track passes, tackles, shots etc for both sides in an entire match. That would be a near impossible task for one person.</p>
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		<title>By: sam</title>
		<link>http://www.epltalk.com/do-stats-tell-the-story/1497#comment-5516</link>
		<dc:creator>sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:54:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epltalk.com/do-stats-tell-the-story/#comment-5516</guid>
		<description>I wonder how to found statistics in a given match? If it is by collecting tally for every shoot and pass, I think the validity and releability of the stats will be under question mark?? So if you have an answer please tell me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder how to found statistics in a given match? If it is by collecting tally for every shoot and pass, I think the validity and releability of the stats will be under question mark?? So if you have an answer please tell me.</p>
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		<title>By: Kartik</title>
		<link>http://www.epltalk.com/do-stats-tell-the-story/1497#comment-5375</link>
		<dc:creator>Kartik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 19:46:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epltalk.com/do-stats-tell-the-story/#comment-5375</guid>
		<description>Bill Beane as you mentioned is running the Quakes, or partially running the team. He&#039;s hard at work from what I have been told (a source fairly close to him) devising similar scouting tools.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill Beane as you mentioned is running the Quakes, or partially running the team. He’s hard at work from what I have been told (a source fairly close to him) devising similar scouting tools.</p>
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		<title>By: Darin</title>
		<link>http://www.epltalk.com/do-stats-tell-the-story/1497#comment-5373</link>
		<dc:creator>Darin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 17:50:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epltalk.com/do-stats-tell-the-story/#comment-5373</guid>
		<description>Billy Beane of the Oakland A&#039;s baseball club developed a statistical system to find good performing players who are much cheaper to buy than the Jeters and A-Rods of the world, and it has been received well.  He is somewhat involved with San Jose of MLS (not to mention an EPL fan), and has been supposedly trying to develop a similar system to find quality value players for MLS&#039; very limited salary restrictions.

I don&#039;t know if he can even do such a thing for football like he did for baseball, but if he can it would be of great benefit for teams all across the globe.  I&#039;m sure it&#039;s been attempted before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Billy Beane of the Oakland A’s baseball club developed a statistical system to find good performing players who are much cheaper to buy than the Jeters and A-Rods of the world, and it has been received well.  He is somewhat involved with San Jose of MLS (not to mention an EPL fan), and has been supposedly trying to develop a similar system to find quality value players for MLS’ very limited salary restrictions.</p>
<p>I don’t know if he can even do such a thing for football like he did for baseball, but if he can it would be of great benefit for teams all across the globe.  I’m sure it’s been attempted before.</p>
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		<title>By: jm</title>
		<link>http://www.epltalk.com/do-stats-tell-the-story/1497#comment-5367</link>
		<dc:creator>jm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:35:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epltalk.com/do-stats-tell-the-story/#comment-5367</guid>
		<description>Kartik,

Your argument is misdirected.  It has absolutely no bearing on the &quot;usefulness of stats.&quot;  

Rather, your argument points out the uselessness of some uninterpreted statistics.  Well, that&#039;s trivial.  Statistics without context, without interpretation, are often mere counters.  They are records of events.  You cannot directly infer from a record of events to an evaluation of those events.  That&#039;s why you cannot infer from &quot;Vinny Testeverde is 6th all time in passing yards&quot; (or whatever he is) to &quot;Vinny Testeverde is the 6th best QB of all time.&quot;  That&#039;s just simply not what those statistics mean.

But of course they are not useless!  If we do interpret them correctly, they will tell us a lot of information.  Statistics are not the domain of losers.  They are the tools that successful teams in all reaches of sport use to analyze the game from a scientific perspective, dealing with trends over time.  They allow you to synthesize a large number of individual events into broader trends, trends that might go unnoticed to the human eye when it is only observing the individual events themselves. They simply are not the sort of thing which can be categorically useless.  It&#039;s a question of understanding their scope, and their limitations, and applying them thus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kartik,</p>
<p>Your argument is misdirected.  It has absolutely no bearing on the “usefulness of stats.”  </p>
<p>Rather, your argument points out the uselessness of some uninterpreted statistics.  Well, that’s trivial.  Statistics without context, without interpretation, are often mere counters.  They are records of events.  You cannot directly infer from a record of events to an evaluation of those events.  That’s why you cannot infer from “Vinny Testeverde is 6th all time in passing yards” (or whatever he is) to “Vinny Testeverde is the 6th best QB of all time.”  That’s just simply not what those statistics mean.</p>
<p>But of course they are not useless!  If we do interpret them correctly, they will tell us a lot of information.  Statistics are not the domain of losers.  They are the tools that successful teams in all reaches of sport use to analyze the game from a scientific perspective, dealing with trends over time.  They allow you to synthesize a large number of individual events into broader trends, trends that might go unnoticed to the human eye when it is only observing the individual events themselves. They simply are not the sort of thing which can be categorically useless.  It’s a question of understanding their scope, and their limitations, and applying them thus.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin @serieatalk</title>
		<link>http://www.epltalk.com/do-stats-tell-the-story/1497#comment-5366</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin @serieatalk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:18:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epltalk.com/do-stats-tell-the-story/#comment-5366</guid>
		<description>good one scout, I downloaded the pic, hope there is no copyright :D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>good one scout, I downloaded the pic, hope there is no copyright <img src='http://www.epltalk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Kartik</title>
		<link>http://www.epltalk.com/do-stats-tell-the-story/1497#comment-5355</link>
		<dc:creator>Kartik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 02:09:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epltalk.com/do-stats-tell-the-story/#comment-5355</guid>
		<description>Dimi Berbatov, Brett Favre&#039;s numbers were massive and impressive.........that is one place where stats didn&#039;t lie. But the fact that Vinny Testeverde is like 6th or 7th all time in passing yards tells me a lot about the uselessness of stats as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dimi Berbatov, Brett Favre’s numbers were massive and impressive………that is one place where stats didn’t lie. But the fact that Vinny Testeverde is like 6th or 7th all time in passing yards tells me a lot about the uselessness of stats as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Kartik</title>
		<link>http://www.epltalk.com/do-stats-tell-the-story/1497#comment-5354</link>
		<dc:creator>Kartik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 02:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epltalk.com/do-stats-tell-the-story/#comment-5354</guid>
		<description>Actually I disagree about the yards per carry. Some backs are grinders who get the ball in  a lot of 3rd and 1 or 3rd and 2 situations while other guys are slashers who are handed the ball on draw plays on 3rd and 17, pick up 14 yards and his team still punts! However, these rules aren&#039;t absolute and the better backs average more yards per carry as you said. 

But you are right in some ways YPC is a better indicator than total rushing yards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually I disagree about the yards per carry. Some backs are grinders who get the ball in  a lot of 3rd and 1 or 3rd and 2 situations while other guys are slashers who are handed the ball on draw plays on 3rd and 17, pick up 14 yards and his team still punts! However, these rules aren’t absolute and the better backs average more yards per carry as you said. </p>
<p>But you are right in some ways YPC is a better indicator than total rushing yards.</p>
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		<title>By: TheScout</title>
		<link>http://www.epltalk.com/do-stats-tell-the-story/1497#comment-5339</link>
		<dc:creator>TheScout</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Mar 2008 18:14:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epltalk.com/do-stats-tell-the-story/#comment-5339</guid>
		<description>Great comments from all of you...just a few follow-up points. 

There are certainly some stats that don&#039;t tell you much. Citing Kartik&#039;s example of rushing yards, total rushing yards for the season is not really meaningful but yards per carry can be more indicative of how both the back and the offensive line perform.

One EPL-related stat that I found very telling was the team mark for successful passes. The teams that are toward the top of the standings are also toward the top of the total successful passes. When I watch Arsenal, Chelsea or Manchester United, this stat rings true to me as they do tend to guard possession of the ball and are typically more accurate in their passing then a mid-table side like West Ham. Of course, there is always an argument to be made the other way in that it&#039;s simply a matter of differing styles of play but that&#039;s what I find helpful is that the stats can enhance or spark good discussions about football philosophies.

Opta also has a tracking feature that shows what the actual &quot;shape&quot; of each side was during the match. Those graphics often show where the winning side tried to exploit perceived weaknesses, etc.

Ultimately for myself, I find stats can be a nice way of reassuring myself that what my eyes are telling me is accurate. I agree with the comments that without context they lose a lot of meaning and they should only be used as one of many methods in both the analysis of games and scouting of players.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great comments from all of you…just a few follow-up points. </p>
<p>There are certainly some stats that don’t tell you much. Citing Kartik’s example of rushing yards, total rushing yards for the season is not really meaningful but yards per carry can be more indicative of how both the back and the offensive line perform.</p>
<p>One EPL-related stat that I found very telling was the team mark for successful passes. The teams that are toward the top of the standings are also toward the top of the total successful passes. When I watch Arsenal, Chelsea or Manchester United, this stat rings true to me as they do tend to guard possession of the ball and are typically more accurate in their passing then a mid-table side like West Ham. Of course, there is always an argument to be made the other way in that it’s simply a matter of differing styles of play but that’s what I find helpful is that the stats can enhance or spark good discussions about football philosophies.</p>
<p>Opta also has a tracking feature that shows what the actual “shape” of each side was during the match. Those graphics often show where the winning side tried to exploit perceived weaknesses, etc.</p>
<p>Ultimately for myself, I find stats can be a nice way of reassuring myself that what my eyes are telling me is accurate. I agree with the comments that without context they lose a lot of meaning and they should only be used as one of many methods in both the analysis of games and scouting of players.</p>
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		<title>By: Dimi Berbatov</title>
		<link>http://www.epltalk.com/do-stats-tell-the-story/1497#comment-5337</link>
		<dc:creator>Dimi Berbatov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Mar 2008 17:47:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epltalk.com/do-stats-tell-the-story/#comment-5337</guid>
		<description>Kartik, what an awful and uninformed post.  You see, that is the beauty of statistics.  They are only as valuable as the person who interprets them.  The right stat in an appropriate context is informative and the wrong stat out of context is useless (much like the recent retirement of an NFL quarterback which gave a lot of attention to his massive numbers that emerged from playing for 17 years!).  It seems your mother didn&#039;t let you win any trophies as a youth.

JM makes a great point about the future of stats.  The same visual recognition technology that is now being employed by civil engineers to track and monitor traffic patterns will soon be able to give a whole new array of statistics in from  football matches.

Yes stats are prevalent in baseball but that  does not mean they are fully accepted as a scouting tool.  They are still only a piece of the puzzle and as Alex Hleb suggests they have to be translated when a player moves from one league to another.  Unlike dodgy scouts, statistics aren&#039;t often wrong, they are just misinterpreted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kartik, what an awful and uninformed post.  You see, that is the beauty of statistics.  They are only as valuable as the person who interprets them.  The right stat in an appropriate context is informative and the wrong stat out of context is useless (much like the recent retirement of an NFL quarterback which gave a lot of attention to his massive numbers that emerged from playing for 17 years!).  It seems your mother didn’t let you win any trophies as a youth.</p>
<p>JM makes a great point about the future of stats.  The same visual recognition technology that is now being employed by civil engineers to track and monitor traffic patterns will soon be able to give a whole new array of statistics in from  football matches.</p>
<p>Yes stats are prevalent in baseball but that  does not mean they are fully accepted as a scouting tool.  They are still only a piece of the puzzle and as Alex Hleb suggests they have to be translated when a player moves from one league to another.  Unlike dodgy scouts, statistics aren’t often wrong, they are just misinterpreted.</p>
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