Comments on: Football And The Decline Of The Western Civilization http://www.epltalk.com/football-and-the-decline-of-the-western-civilization/2525 Daily News & Analysis of the English Premier League Sun, 21 Mar 2010 14:17:32 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Every Scar Tells a Story - The Run of Play http://www.epltalk.com/football-and-the-decline-of-the-western-civilization/2525#comment-14749 Every Scar Tells a Story - The Run of Play Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:08:18 +0000 http://www.epltalk.com/football-and-the-decline-of-the-western-civilization/2525#comment-14749 [...] Gaffer at EPL Talk asks whether today’s achievements can stand up to the legends of yesterday, and finds that they [...] [...] Gaffer at EPL Talk asks whether today’s achievements can stand up to the legends of yesterday, and finds that they [...]

]]> By: eplnfl http://www.epltalk.com/football-and-the-decline-of-the-western-civilization/2525#comment-13274 eplnfl Tue, 01 Jul 2008 13:09:11 +0000 http://www.epltalk.com/football-and-the-decline-of-the-western-civilization/2525#comment-13274 Well, I am old enough to be a grand father and have seen generations come and go! I do not feel great about my vast experience base, but I can say this, each generation brings out it's new stars and they are better then the past but different. However, there are a handful of people who stand out from one generation to the next, in football it's Pele, in basketball it's Michael Jordan, in politics it's Winston Churchill, in the arts, Michaelangelo, go on and pick your area. Each generation has it's value and each generation brings some people or thing that will remain a bright star for centuries. Good piece Chris! Well, I am old enough to be a grand father and have seen generations come and go! I do not feel great about my vast experience base, but I can say this, each generation brings out it’s new stars and they are better then the past but different.

However, there are a handful of people who stand out from one generation to the next, in football it’s Pele, in basketball it’s Michael Jordan, in politics it’s Winston Churchill, in the arts, Michaelangelo, go on and pick your area. Each generation has it’s value and each generation brings some people or thing that will remain a bright star for centuries.

Good piece Chris!

]]> By: Kartik http://www.epltalk.com/football-and-the-decline-of-the-western-civilization/2525#comment-13234 Kartik Tue, 01 Jul 2008 01:49:43 +0000 http://www.epltalk.com/football-and-the-decline-of-the-western-civilization/2525#comment-13234 You people are unbelievable. This is an outstanding ANALYTICAL look at football and society today. Some of you have an "I was born yesterday mentality." Thankfully the Gaffer is not as shortsighted as so many of his readers. Good work, Gaff. Great piece. I don't agree with all of it but appreciate your sentiments and thoughts. You people are unbelievable. This is an outstanding

ANALYTICAL look at football and society today.

Some of you have an “I was born yesterday mentality.”

Thankfully the Gaffer is not as shortsighted as so many of his readers.

Good work, Gaff. Great piece. I don’t agree with all of it but appreciate your sentiments and thoughts.

]]> By: The Gaffer http://www.epltalk.com/football-and-the-decline-of-the-western-civilization/2525#comment-13219 The Gaffer Mon, 30 Jun 2008 23:31:12 +0000 http://www.epltalk.com/football-and-the-decline-of-the-western-civilization/2525#comment-13219 All, I don't pretend to have all of the answers, but the article is based more on a matter of opinion than fact. Sure, I'm older (late 30s) and have been through a lot in my life, so I may sound more jaded than most of you who commented, but this is my perspective on the world that we live in. Tomas/Alex, I have three kids and a fourth on the way. I don't feel they're doomed at all but I'm more of a realist than an idealist. Good feedback everyone. I enjoyed reading everyone's comments on this one. Cheers, The Gaffer All,

I don’t pretend to have all of the answers, but the article is based more on a matter of opinion than fact. Sure, I’m older (late 30s) and have been through a lot in my life, so I may sound more jaded than most of you who commented, but this is my perspective on the world that we live in.

Tomas/Alex, I have three kids and a fourth on the way. I don’t feel they’re doomed at all but I’m more of a realist than an idealist.

Good feedback everyone. I enjoyed reading everyone’s comments on this one.

Cheers,
The Gaffer

]]> By: soccr tease http://www.epltalk.com/football-and-the-decline-of-the-western-civilization/2525#comment-13205 soccr tease Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:39:14 +0000 http://www.epltalk.com/football-and-the-decline-of-the-western-civilization/2525#comment-13205 This post is complete bollocks. The truth is, in fact the opposite. The general level of play has increased so much that phenoms are only a fraction of a cut above instead of 3 cuts like they were in 50's or even the 80's. Never in history have majorfootballing clubs recruited and trained players from such a young age. never before has the motivation been stronger and more widespread(glory, cash) and available to wider groups of people(widespread adoption of television, and internet) that has allowed the cultivation of a generation of players who rival pele and pukas. 1 pele on the field is great, but 20 of them just makes some damn fine football. Aside from the diving and the crass commercialism thats exactly what we see in the best leagues of the world today. Today, football is a far better game than it ever has been. This post is complete bollocks. The truth is, in fact the opposite. The general level of play has increased so much that phenoms are only a fraction of a cut above instead of 3 cuts like they were in 50’s or even the 80’s. Never in history have majorfootballing clubs recruited and trained players from such a young age. never before has the motivation been stronger and more widespread(glory, cash) and available to wider groups of people(widespread adoption of television, and internet) that has allowed the cultivation of a generation of players who rival pele and pukas.

1 pele on the field is great, but 20 of them just makes some damn fine football. Aside from the diving and the crass commercialism thats exactly what we see in the best leagues of the world today. Today, football is a far better game than it ever has been.

]]> By: kat kid http://www.epltalk.com/football-and-the-decline-of-the-western-civilization/2525#comment-13203 kat kid Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:56:56 +0000 http://www.epltalk.com/football-and-the-decline-of-the-western-civilization/2525#comment-13203 1) Gaffer you sound more like Grandpa 2) Why don't we wait until C. Ronaldo, Messi, et al can be judged in history the same way that we now judge Picasso/Pele 3) Your article underlies the point that SpursFan makes: our culture has not been debased, it has been transformed and largely for the better in terms of the availability of information and the rapid increases in technology and human athletic achievement. One of the effects of this is the shortening of our attention spans, and thus, the need for ever shortening intervals of re-evaluation and melancholic or celebratory insta-nostalgia (see: I love the 80's, 90's and now even more ridiculously the 00's! We can't even make it through a whole decade now without creaming over ourselves about the recent past). Gaffer, we love you but the grumpiness and sentimentality is not much appreciated. 1) Gaffer you sound more like Grandpa
2) Why don’t we wait until C. Ronaldo, Messi, et al can be judged in history the same way that we now judge Picasso/Pele
3) Your article underlies the point that SpursFan makes: our culture has not been debased, it has been transformed and largely for the better in terms of the availability of information and the rapid increases in technology and human athletic achievement. One of the effects of this is the shortening of our attention spans, and thus, the need for ever shortening intervals of re-evaluation and melancholic or celebratory insta-nostalgia (see: I love the 80’s, 90’s and now even more ridiculously the 00’s! We can’t even make it through a whole decade now without creaming over ourselves about the recent past).

Gaffer, we love you but the grumpiness and sentimentality is not much appreciated.

]]> By: tomas rose-hickey(formerly alex hleb) http://www.epltalk.com/football-and-the-decline-of-the-western-civilization/2525#comment-13201 tomas rose-hickey(formerly alex hleb) Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:45:04 +0000 http://www.epltalk.com/football-and-the-decline-of-the-western-civilization/2525#comment-13201 gaffer do you have any kids or want kids? do you feel that your kids would be doomed then? im 20 but know that one day before im 40 would like to have kids. i would not want to say that my kids are doomed. i have hope that this generation will come through to be great. remember, many artists were not considered great during their time but are heroes today. capernicus and galileo come to mind. who knows, maybe someone in this generation will come up with a cure for aids or cancer. maybe you and i are different. im an idealist, how about you? gaffer do you have any kids or want kids? do you feel that your kids would be doomed then? im 20 but know that one day before im 40 would like to have kids. i would not want to say that my kids are doomed. i have hope that this generation will come through to be great. remember, many artists were not considered great during their time but are heroes today. capernicus and galileo come to mind. who knows, maybe someone in this generation will come up with a cure for aids or cancer. maybe you and i are different. im an idealist, how about you?

]]> By: Dave @ Soccer FanHouse http://www.epltalk.com/football-and-the-decline-of-the-western-civilization/2525#comment-13198 Dave @ Soccer FanHouse Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:11:29 +0000 http://www.epltalk.com/football-and-the-decline-of-the-western-civilization/2525#comment-13198 Back in my day, kids weren't as fat, dumb and lazy as they are now, with their damn internets and mo-bile phones! We had to walk five miles in the snow to get to school! If someone suffered a heart attack in the street, we didn't have this fancy CPR nonsense! We just stood there and watched him die! That's the way it was, and we LIKED it! C'mon, Gaffer, you're better than this. With all the talk of Spain's "Joga Bonito" winning EURO 2008, you should feel a bit more encouraged about the future of the Association game. Football is not doomed by any stretch. Back in my day, kids weren’t as fat, dumb and lazy as they are now, with their damn internets and mo-bile phones! We had to walk five miles in the snow to get to school! If someone suffered a heart attack in the street, we didn’t have this fancy CPR nonsense! We just stood there and watched him die! That’s the way it was, and we LIKED it!

C’mon, Gaffer, you’re better than this. With all the talk of Spain’s “Joga Bonito” winning EURO 2008, you should feel a bit more encouraged about the future of the Association game. Football is not doomed by any stretch.

]]> By: Chad http://www.epltalk.com/football-and-the-decline-of-the-western-civilization/2525#comment-13196 Chad Mon, 30 Jun 2008 16:12:44 +0000 http://www.epltalk.com/football-and-the-decline-of-the-western-civilization/2525#comment-13196 Here are three arguments. Two support the idea that our current stars are just as good if not better than the established legends. The other argument is skeptical of questions the sort the gaffer is asking. Here is an argument that the players who dominate our era are just as good if not better than past legends. In this day and age, globalisation is the norm. Anyone who has knowledge of South American club football knows that it is a selling business. The best players are sold to European clubs. Over time, this has created a concentration of the best players that exist in a small number of leagues. This means the competition in European leagues is at an undeniably high level. So, whichever players dominates our era, he will be dominating in the era of globalisation. That player will be dominating a system whose very nature is to produce the highest concentration of quality. This bodes well for the idea that our current crop of stars really are just as good if not better than past legends, because the past legends did not compete in such a system of globalisation. Here is a second argument that our current stars are just as good as the legends. Not only are European leagues concentrated with the best players in the world, these leagues are concentrated with teams that have extensive and systematic scientific knowledge about fitness and diet. This knowledge allows each team to get the most out of each player. In the past, knowledge about fitness and diet paled in comparison, and it is likely that many players did not reach the ceilings of their potential partially because of this reason. Players of this era do not have this problem. Thus, players that dominate this era are not only reaching their ceilings of potential, but the level of competition who they play against are also reaching the ceilings of their potential. Finally, here is an argument that I had fun with because it is of an extreme form of skepticism and kind of out there. Value judgments that express propositions like, 'Pele is better that Cruyff' lack a truth-value (i.e. they are not true, nor are they false) because there is no objective criteria by which to evaluate the proposition expressed. On the other hand, a statement like, 'Pele is faster than Cruyff' is not problematic, because we could easily come up with an objective criterion that would settle the question (e.g. record their times as they run 100m). 'Pele is better than Cruyff' is not like this at all. What would the criteria be? Not only that, whatever criteria you come up with, I'm sure that someone will disagree with your selection. Your opinion that the best players win the most titles would be countered with someone saying the best players score the most goals. Who gets to decide which criterion is the correct one? It is certainly not implicit in the definition of 'better than' which criterion would win. Thus, the very nature the questions the gaffer is asking is problematic. Cheers. Here are three arguments. Two support the idea that our current stars are just as good if not better than the established legends. The other argument is skeptical of questions the sort the gaffer is asking.

Here is an argument that the players who dominate our era are just as good if not better than past legends. In this day and age, globalisation is the norm. Anyone who has knowledge of South American club football knows that it is a selling business. The best players are sold to European clubs. Over time, this has created a concentration of the best players that exist in a small number of leagues. This means the competition in European leagues is at an undeniably high level. So, whichever players dominates our era, he will be dominating in the era of globalisation. That player will be dominating a system whose very nature is to produce the highest concentration of quality. This bodes well for the idea that our current crop of stars really are just as good if not better than past legends, because the past legends did not compete in such a system of globalisation.

Here is a second argument that our current stars are just as good as the legends. Not only are European leagues concentrated with the best players in the world, these leagues are concentrated with teams that have extensive and systematic scientific knowledge about fitness and diet. This knowledge allows each team to get the most out of each player. In the past, knowledge about fitness and diet paled in comparison, and it is likely that many players did not reach the ceilings of their potential partially because of this reason. Players of this era do not have this problem. Thus, players that dominate this era are not only reaching their ceilings of potential, but the level of competition who they play against are also reaching the ceilings of their potential.

Finally, here is an argument that I had fun with because it is of an extreme form of skepticism and kind of out there. Value judgments that express propositions like, ‘Pele is better that Cruyff’ lack a truth-value (i.e. they are not true, nor are they false) because there is no objective criteria by which to evaluate the proposition expressed. On the other hand, a statement like, ‘Pele is faster than Cruyff’ is not problematic, because we could easily come up with an objective criterion that would settle the question (e.g. record their times as they run 100m). ‘Pele is better than Cruyff’ is not like this at all. What would the criteria be? Not only that, whatever criteria you come up with, I’m sure that someone will disagree with your selection. Your opinion that the best players win the most titles would be countered with someone saying the best players score the most goals. Who gets to decide which criterion is the correct one? It is certainly not implicit in the definition of ‘better than’ which criterion would win. Thus, the very nature the questions the gaffer is asking is problematic.

Cheers.

]]> By: Hank http://www.epltalk.com/football-and-the-decline-of-the-western-civilization/2525#comment-13195 Hank Mon, 30 Jun 2008 16:01:44 +0000 http://www.epltalk.com/football-and-the-decline-of-the-western-civilization/2525#comment-13195 Sorry, I'm a fan of the blog, but I think this post needs a rewrite :) Aside from disagreeing with both the premise (culture is in decline) and the conclusion (football is in decline) - I don't think it makes its point very convincingly. The conclusion is stated at the end, but until I read that next to last paragraph, I had no idea which side of the issue the post fell on. Paragraphs (2,4,7) raise questions about the conclusion, but the questions are ignored rather then refuted. Paragraph 3 is almost a non-sequitur, stating that comparisons between artists from different times are difficult, then making a point about Amy Winehouse. Sorry, I’m a fan of the blog, but I think this post needs a rewrite :)

Aside from disagreeing with both the premise (culture is in decline) and the conclusion (football is in decline) – I don’t think it makes its point very convincingly.

The conclusion is stated at the end, but until I read that next to last paragraph, I had no idea which side of the issue the post fell on. Paragraphs (2,4,7) raise questions about the conclusion, but the questions are ignored rather then refuted. Paragraph 3 is almost a non-sequitur, stating that comparisons between artists from different times are difficult, then making a point about Amy Winehouse.

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