On Monday’s episode of the World Soccer Daily show, radio co-host Steven Cohen failed to apologize to Liverpool supporters regarding the inaccurate statements he made about their role in the Hillsborough Disaster that occurred on April 15, 1989.
The inaccurate statements made by Cohen on his April 13, 2009 episode of World Soccer Daily were that:
- Ticketless Liverpool supporters were the root cause of the Hillsborough Disaster,
- 6-8,000 ticketless Liverpool supporters showed up outside Hillsborough, and
- Sheffield Wednesday’s Hillsborough Stadium was used week-in week-out without incident.
Instead of apologizing, he softened his April 13 stance on his belief that there were 6-8,000 ticketless Liverpool supporters outside the ground. During the April 20, 2009 episode, he first said “There were several thousand who showed up without tickets.” But a few minutes later, when co-host Kenny Hassan gave Cohen an opportunity to retract the 6-8,000 number, Cohen replied “If it’s not the right number, it’s not the point. If I’m wrong on the number, then I’ll retract it and apologize. If it’s 25, 2500 or 25,000, my point is made for me. There were people there who shouldn’t have been there because they didn’t have tickets and they were hell bent on getting in. I’m sorry, those are the facts.”
Cohen is barking up the wrong tree when he claims ticketless fans contributed to the disaster. They did not. According to The Hillsborough Football Disaster paper entitled Context and Consequences, page 17, “[Lord Justice] Taylor surmised there was no substance to the allegation that ticketless fans caused the Disaster.”
And while there may have been some ticketless supporters outside the ground — as there are at any major football game or sporting event — “I have already found that there was not an abnormally large number of fans without tickets on this occasion,” said Lord Taylor in his interim report. “With one or two exceptions, the police witnesses themselves did not subscribe to the ‘conspiracy’ theory (of a large number of late-arriving ticketless supporters).”
Cohen has seemingly changed his tune about Liverpool — from the extreme opinion on April 13 that the ticketless fans were the root cause of the Hillsborough Disaster to a twisted logic on April 20 that insists on Liverpool fans admitting that they were part responsible for the disaster because some ticketless fans were hell bent on getting inside the stadium.
According to a report from the Health and Safety Executive (HSE), “it was unlikely that the terrace exceeded 10,124 and that total admissions were approximately equal to the designated capacity of 10,100 people.”
So even if there were as few as 24 ticketless supporters who were hell bent on getting into the Leppings Lane end, it would have been impossible for those fans — who were vastly outnumbered — to have an impact on the more than 3,000 fans who were inside the central pen.
“The point is if the people [without tickets] hadn’t been outside, this never [would have] happened,” said Cohen. “This is a stadium that had no problems prior to this particular day. That’s a fact.”
Except that it isn’t a fact. It’s inaccurate. As I reported in Monday’s EPL Talk article, there had been several incidents at Hillsborough prior to April 15, 1989 — most notably a game in 1981 when 38 Spurs supporters suffered crush-related injuries in the same Leppings Lane stand.
It’s time for Steven Cohen to share the facts with us that he claims he has. It’s also time for Cohen to publicly retract his statement that there were 6-8,000 ticketless Liverpool supporters. And most importantly of all, he needs to retract his statement that Liverpool fans were responsible for the Hillsborough Disaster.
There’s no evidence to show that 24 supporters sneaking over the wall at Hillsborough were a factor in the death of the 96 Liverpool fans who died from crush-related injuries. But there are plenty of pieces of evidence that chronicle the list of mistakes that South Yorkshire Police, Sheffield Wednesday and the Football Association committed.
For Steven Cohen to not apologize on air and to carry on about the need for Liverpool to share the responsibility of what happened at Hillsborough is sickening. It’s time for Cohen to admit he was wrong, apologize to Liverpool fans and to read the Taylor Interim Report to better educate himself and his World Soccer Daily listeners.
If he doesn’t apologize to his radio listeners, I’m concerned that he may spread his misinformation about what caused the Hillsborough Disaster to the weekly Fox Football Fone-In TV show that he co-hosts on Fox Soccer Channel. Having a loose cannon like Cohen on live TV is a risk that Fox has to determine whether it’s worth taking.
EPL Talk readers interested in learning more about Hillsborough as well as the chance to see TV footage and interviews should watch the excellent BBC Football Focus video from April 11, 2009 which was a special tribute to the 20th anniversary of the Hillsborough Disaster.
I should note that Kartik Krishnaiyer, from our sister site Major League Soccer Talk, had an interview previously arranged with Cohen for this Thursday, so feel free to post your questions for Cohen there. The interview is a golden opportunity for Cohen to respond to direct questions from you about his opinions regarding what really happened at Hillsborough.
You can listen to the segment of the April 20 episode where Cohen discusses the EPL Talk article below.
UPDATE: On May 18, 2009, Steven Cohen apologized on World Soccer Daily for his unfortunate and inaccurate statements he made about the Hillsborough Disaster.
UPDATE 2: The comments regarding the Steven Cohen controversy have been closed. It’s time to return the discussion to football.
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{ 421 comments }
Why give this weasel a headline and a platform. Every year he grand stands on this issue to raise his profile. Ignore him and he will go away. Disgraceful little person peddling his pathetic little podcast based on his distorted ex Tottenham / currently Chelsea view of the world.
Poor little pathetic man. His sponsors provide the must boycott list for all true football fans.
Steven Cohen should not apologize to Liverpool fans specifically. He should apologize to all his viewers and listeners for lying to them and deceiving them about this tragic disaster.
This spineless cretin has all the credibility of a holocaust denier, and should be treated in much the same manner.
The true facts are there for all to see, yet this moron persists in spreading the same putrid lies and myths that have become expected from ‘News’ International and all of it’s rancid acolytes.
Is it any wonder that American’s have such a reputation for being ignorant, when this poor example of humanity is allowed onto the airwaves, free to spout this bile dressed up as ‘facts’?
Do yourself, and your listener(s), a favour, Cohen. Get somebody literate to teach you to read, and then read the interim Taylor Report. Then, and only then, can you say with any authority that you have read the facts.
Finally, you’re a liar, Cohen. Sue me, if you dare!
Cohen you are not mis informed you know the truth you are a liar
What I find to be the key element to this farce is we have a journalist with a very loose grasp of the situation. He blithely dismisses the only substantial finding done on the tragedy simply in order to maintain his tenuous take on the disaster and fails HORRIBLY in separating his assumptions from reality. This is shoddy punditry, and both Cohen and Hassan’s dismissiveness toward whatever groups tried to reach out to them in the form of e-mails, shows their complete and utter lack of class. If football punditry in the US is in the hands of someone like Steven Cohen, then this sport will never achieve its full potential.
A bitter man with no integrity and even less compassion. Steven Cohen is an embarrassment to his profession and the media organisations that see fit to employ him. World Soccer Daily and Fox Sports’ Football Fone-In must move to distance themselves from the unforgivable misinformation he peddles as truth.
Think he should be taken off the air? Tell the people that pay him! I did.
You can submit comments to Fox Soccer Channel here: http://msn.foxsports.com/feedback.
He’s the CEO of the company that produced World Soccer Daily, and you can write to them here: http://www.worldsoccerweekly.com/aboutus.html.
And you can write to Sirius radio here: http://www.sirius.com/customercare.
If he doesn’t have a way to broadcast his foul prejudices, he will HAVE to go away, won’t he.
Classic picture of Cohen in an Arsenal shirt. Speaks volumes. Thanks for sharing.
BTW, this is what I wrote to Sirius radio:
You must sever all ties with Steven Cohen, host (and CEO of the company that produces) the World Soccer Daily show, following his recent inflammatory and factually incorrect comments regarding the Hillsborough disaster in which 96 innocent people died.
Mr. Cohen has accused the soccer fans themselves of causing this disaster. A British government inquiry has shown this allegation to be absolutely false. Newspapers in the UK have been successfully sued for libel following similar allegations, and Mr. Cohen is in danger of dragging Sirius into a similar legal fight.
You MUST remove Mr. Cohen from the air immediately, to preserve Sirius’s reputation for excellence broadcasting and to uphold the value of the World Soccer Daily show. You diminish your company and your products by associating with such a modern-day hooligan as Mr. Cohen.
Do we really need another piece on this? Steven Cohen is a loud, obnoxious, on-air personality. If he didn’t have opinions, some of them stupid, he’d have a hard time filling hours and hours of radio time with his own chatter.
The BBC Just offered an apology:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/liverpool/5194642/BBC-issues-apology-after-Radio-1-blames-Liverpool-fans-for-Hillsborough.html
See, Steven, it’s not that hard. Should I now poison the well with Chelsea’s combat 18 and NF links? No, because that would make me as pathetic as you.
“Maybe I’ve watched too much Law & Order…”
As opposed to, say, reading the Taylor Report.
Of course, he later says “I don’t care about the Taylor Report”, so presumably it’s inadmissible…What a strange sense of logic the man has. Has he actually thought about what he’s saying?
I agree 100% with Steven he has a great radio show and no matter what any report or anything else you want to come with we all know that Liverpool supports showed up with out tickets was it all there fault no. But the blame should be put on all parties that day the stadium, the police, and the Liverpool fans. This and Hysle are the only reason I have for hating Liverpool there fans to this day still think they did nothing wrong and they are guilty in both events.
Dear Mr Cohen,
Not only does the Taylor Report, issued under a different political administration than today’s in the UK, stand resolutely in the way of your scurrilous claims but this is the current Prime Minister’s opinion:
“I think that’s probably what matters most: that people understood that the behaviour of Liverpool fans in helping each other was, as I think the judge said, ‘Magnificent’; that it was wrong for people to blame, as some did, Liverpool fans on that day.”
That is a lot more concise than reading the whole report, perhaps as a result it will be easier for the message to get through to your obviously struggling brain.
If you are still confused, which I am pretty certain you will be, then PLEASE accept my invitation to come to Liverpool and let us have the chance of enlighting you personally!
disgrace! The point is lord taylor said liverpool fans had nothing to do with this tragedy and that it was the failings of south yorkshire police! liverpool fans do not have to push any blame anywhere. all we want is for the people blamed by lord justice Taylor to be held accountable for their actions! Hillsborough was a death trap anybody who knows football knows this, there were a number of incidents that were left undealt with. 96 people lost their lives that day and it could have happened to any supporter in the country!
So Rickie, the official report collated using police statments is incorrect?
What an interesting view of the “truth” you have.
Get over it!!!
It was 20 years ago.
Yes it is, if the police screwed this up so bad then how come it did not happen with the Nottingham Forest fans down at the Spion Kop End but it only happened at the Lepping Lane End with the Liverpool fans. Why because a bunch of pissed up Liverpool Hooligans decided they were going to the game no matter what.
Liverpool actually requested the Spion Kop End as it’s alot bigger than the Leppings Lane End but FA declined that request. Rickie (or should I say Steven Cohen) you might want to do some research before posting rather than giving your opinion.
Does anyone ever consider that the Taylor Report may have come to the conclusion it did for political reasons?
Does anyone ever realize that having a conflicting opinion isn’t reason to call someone a c#*t or wish harm on them or their family?
If Liverpool fans truly want to move on from this ear they would not have given a half hearted insulting “apology” for Heysel which the Juve fans rightly turned their backs on and would be subject to some degree of accountability for Hillsborough.
Christopher Harris, why don’t you play the clip from Steven Cohen yesterday which perfectly reasonable claiming the South Lancashire police bore the brunt of the blame as did Sheffield Wednesday. All he is saying is Liverpool’s fans, many drunk and ticketless weren’t totally blameless.
LFC you aren’t always victims. Heysel proved that even if this blog wants to suck up to Liverpool fans and avoid an honest and open discussion of the issue.
Yes I am Steven Cohen Tim how did you guess you are a genuis. Actully I do listen to there show and this is one of the only things I will agree with Steven on for the most part I think he is a jack ass and has no clue what he is talking about. I know they requested the Spion Kop End but they did not get it so this is still a screw up by all and Liverpool fans act like they did nothing wrong all you have to do is half a brain to know that you do not need to be pushing and shoving to get your way in to the stadium.
wow, this personal attack on steven cohen is getting a bit thin gaffer. i get the sentiment, but you are really going after a public figure… and then likely not taking any responsibility for the way people take this information. thats extremely dangerous
in regards to going after sirius.. are you serious? (HA!) do you really think flooding the email box about a show that is a niche sport in the country is going to actually hurt cohen? i dont think he is on a wind up, but that sort of publicity is not going to get him off the air. and FSC? haha youre having a laugh. how many people email fox news everyday about the lies and misleading facts from hannity and orielly? and they are going to fire cohen because of a bunch of scousers and their FACKTS?
let it go. as has been said, the TRUTH isnt out.. ask your own supporters. so why dispute this?
Rickie was it Liverpool fans who opened the gates? was it Liverpool fans that sent them to the two pens that were full, instead of the other areas that had plenty of room? Why are police at football grounds?
OPI, at the foot of this article above is the unedited clip from yesterday’s WSD with Cohen talking about Hillsborough and sharing responsibilities.
Todd, this is by no means a personal attack on Steven Cohen. I heard his comments from his April 13 episode, was repulsed and decided to speak out about it. When he failed to apologize on his April 20 episode for the inaccurate statements he made, I wrote this piece and called him on it. How is that a personal attack?
All I’m asking for is Cohen to retract his inaccurate statements and to apologize, and then to stop this nonsense. The truth is in the Taylor Interim Report and needs to be shared with soccer fans in the United States. With Cohen having so much influence over young impressionable soccer fans who listen to WSD who consider his words the gospel truth, Cohen has a responsibility to tell the truth. It’s about time someone stood up to Cohen and exposed his misinformation that he’s spreading. That’s why I decided to write these two articles.
If Cohen has evidence that contradicts the Taylor Interim Report, I’d like to see or hear it. So far he’s shared nothing and hasn’t apologized for his April 13 statements aired on WSD.
Cheers,
The Gaffer
I am not saying the police are not at fault they are just as much as the fans but there is that small group of fans out there that still think that they did nothing wrong. Were the FA wrong for not giving them the Lane End YES, were the refs wrong for not delaying the start of the game so everyone coud get to there seats YES, were the police wrong for opening the gates YES, and was wrong that those drunk Liverpool fans who had no tickets showed up and pushed there way in and killed all those people YES. Now finally what I am saying is that Liverpool fans need to own up to what happened and let it go just like Rangers fans did with the Ibrox disaster and not have a memorial ceremony every 5 years. They have a memorial for and those who want to go to it on the anniversary can but I do not need to hear about UEFA or the FA needs to move games around for poor ol Liverpool, cause you do not hear about Juventus moving games around for Heysel or do hear of Manchester United moving games around for the Munich air crash which I do beleive the play a game on the 50th anniversary of that.
my only point is gaffer, that its not your intentions, but the response it gets. one could say the criticism you give steven could be applied back upon you. all you are doing is taking pieces of information that support your claim, and then telling people to do with it what they will. i respect you and this site gaffer, so i know its not what you intend… but the sort of stuff i read on here and i can only imagine the emails steven has been getting.. while you are doing nothing wrong by using your public voice to take a stand on an issue, you need to be careful for the potential repercussions. sound familiar?
Todd,
In both of my articles, I’ve included evidence such as an independent report, video footage, findings from government organizations and an exhaustive investigative report. What has Cohen shared other than his words? Nothing.
I welcome criticism, but all I’m trying to do is to defend the truth and to make soccer fans in America aware that the information that Cohen is sharing is dangerously inaccurate.
Cheers,
The Gaffer
gaffer, hurry write an article about this game. hurry. arshavin is an instant legend.
why is cohen wearing an arsenal kit, hes a chelski supporter.
from my recollection it was because arse were the holders of the trophy and were taking it around the world etc…and he wore the kit at some sort of promotional event. its so funny to see all the scousers attack him for wearing an arsenal kit. the fat man nick geber wore one too!!! speaks volumes indeed
arsenal!!!
arshavin is pires-esque. instant legend. the game was an instant classic. best game of the season.
It’s his show he can say whatever the hell he want to. Just like how you can write whatever the hell you want to..People can choose to listen to it or not.
lets all not forget the juventus incident that the liverpool fans did cause.
I am not a fan of Steven Cohen at all. With that said, I am getting so tired of people who think that because someone says something you disagree with you should try to get them thrown off the air. One of the great things about this country is freedom of speech. Steven Cohen has the right to be a blathering idiot if he wants. Even better, we have the right not to listen to blathering idiots like him if we don’t want to. If you don’t like what he has to say, don’t listen to him.
What did Sheffield Wednesday do to get blame?
They built a deathtrap.
It’s there for all to see on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imYujpP7XMs#t=08ms20
Fsquid
Sheffield Wednesday’s safety certificate for their Hillsborough stadium had not been updated since 1979 – unbelievably for a ground the FA decreed fit to hold FA Cup smin-finals, that safety certificate was 10 years out of date. Not only that but upon inspection after the disaster the stadium failed to meet the recommendations of the Green Guide to Football Safety in 17 vital ways: from providing an insufficient numbers of turnstiles, to a far too steep gradient slope in the tunnel to the terraces and from the non-deployment of stewards on concourses to assist fans to incoherent or non-existant signage to direct fans safely.
For anyone wishing to get all the info on what happened at Hillsborough I recommend visiting http://www.hfdinfo.com where all the relevant findings of the various official reports has been combined and condensed in a document called ‘Hillsborough: Context and Consequences’. This is the text that discerning journalists are now using on Hillsborough as a reference guide. If he can manage to pull his head out of his asshole Steve Cohen could do with having a look so he can base his opinions on facts and not just to suit his own warped agenda.
Don’t go after the shows, Fox, WSD etc. Boycott these shows advertisers and call them to tell them why. When it starts to cost them money is when netwoks will start to listen.
Cohen is *********************
A deathtrap that was good enough to host 5 FA Cup semis?
Gaffer, thanks for standing up for truth in journalism. Sadly I believe that Cohen is just more interested in getting attention than his integrity as a journalist.
There are many on here who are just too interested in believing what they want to believe. I’m not gonna waste any time trying to convince them otherwise. The facts are there in the Taylor report and more importantly noone has ever brought any evidence to dispute them. If people want to believe something else then they will. For those who are interested in learning more about what happened then I really do urge you to read about it. The Gaffer linked to the Taylor report itself which can also be found at http://www.hfdinfo.com
There is also a quick summary here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7992845.stm
fsquid,
Have you ever heard the expression “Accident waiting to happen”?
Hillsborough wasn’t “good enough to host 5 FA Cup semis”. They were just fortunate to get away with it up until that fateful day. It could have happened at any of those semis, but a combination of poor design and inexperienced policing in 1989 led to the disaster.
Was there nothing wrong with the design of Kings Cross Underground station or the emergency proceedures in place prior to the fatal fire in 1987, simply because millions of people had used the station without incident for years before?
Scott,
People are entitled to their own opinions. They are not entitled to their own facts.
Steven Cohen is one of the leading voices in soccer in the US. It would be one thing if he was simply stating his opinion, but he is knowingly lying to a relatively ignorant audience and in doing so, sullying the reputations of hundreds of innocent people.
That’s called defamation of character Scott and it’s illegal. Do you think Fox Soccer and Sirius Satelite should continue to employ a person that repeatedly makes defamatory remarks, putting them at risk of litgation?
Wow, this debate is still going on?
NEWSFLASH: There were numerous factors which resulted in this tragic incident. Yes, Cohen is right about all the ticket-less Liverpool fans outside the stadium that day. The police on duty make the horrible choice to open the gates and let them in rather than have to deal with problems outside the stadium. Prior to Hillsborough and even up to even just a few weeks ago, stadiums with terraces’ have had problems controlling the movement of large crowds. When was the last time you went to a large concert with General Admission tickets? They don’t even do that over here now….Yes, the stadium, as were all stadiums in the UK at that time, was an accident waiting to happen. Even if there was room on the terraces to hold the additional people, it wasn’t designed to have them all come pushing in as quickly as I’m sure most fans would arriving at a match after kickoff which is what lead to the crush.
Cohen makes his living by creating discussion on his radio and TV shows. Honestly, I’m not sure he believes a good chunk of what he says…but if it gets people calling in or listening to his crazy opinions, then he’s getting what he’s looking for…and by bringing this up all the time, you are simply playing into his plan. Fact is, you are all tuning in to disagree with him….scoreboard Cohen (oh wait, that’s a Jim Rome reference)
“Yes, Cohen is right about all the ticket-less Liverpool fans outside the stadium that day.”
No he isn’t.
Have you read the Taylor Report?
Cohen has repeatedly stated that there were 6 – 8 thousand ticketless fans outside the stadium that were in large part responsible for the crush.
The Taylor Report unambiguously states that this is FALSE.
Cohen is completely WRONG and given that the “ticketless fans” argument is at the centre of his entire argument as to why he blames Liverpool fans for the deaths that day, he should defend that argument or retract his defamatory statement.
The very fact that you believe this tosh just illustrates why it is so important to challenge public figures like Cohen who deliberately and callously spread lies.
The excuse that we’re just giving him the publicity he craves doesn’t cut it either. Tell that to David Irving.
I happen to like Steven Cohen and am an avid listener of World Soccer Daily. Moreover, I am also a Liverpool supporter and disagree with his stance on this subject. That being said, the fact that some people are sending death threats to this man and his family on account of his views on Hillsborough is well out of order. If you do not like his stance on Hillsborough, it is fine to voice your displeasure and give reasons as to why you feel that way but, threatening a man’s family is quite frankly appalling, especially doing so in the name of 96 people who died unnecessarily.
He’s right its over. It was 20 yrs ago and crap happens. drop it already. Put measures in to prevent another one, do a min of silence or change your kits on the anniversary and get over it.
This has gone too far people. The gaffer was just trying to offer some facts based on the Taylor report; which is the closest thing we have to the truth at the moment. Dispel what Cohen is saying that is wrong. However whoever is threatening anyone with violence particularly his step daughters are just sick morons. The article was never meant to go that far so stop it please.
Firstly I would like to say a massive shame on you to all u Liverpool fans sending disgraceful e-mails to steven Cohen. If u believe Cohen is wrong u can tell him and others in a civilsed way. Even if he is wrong do u think that threatening the lives of CHILDREN makes u any better????? In fact in my opinion it makes u worse!!
As for u gaffer i hope u do take up steven cohen and kenny hassan’s offer on todays wsd show of phoning into their show and expressing ur views to cohen and the reasons as to why u believe he is completely out of order concerning his views on Hillsborough. Im sure that u didnt intend to generate some of the horrible and inexcusable threats made towards cohen and his family. However, i think it would be good of u to now write another article on this same website condemning the threats made to cohen and his family with the same venom and publicity that u condemned his views on hillsborough, whilst still stating that u believe that hes wrong on the issue.
P.s. To all u liverpool fans i cant resist the opportunity to say that the mighty man united are gonna win there 18th league title. u are now no longer the most successful club in England as we have also won more Fa cups.
say what you want about Steven, as a (impressionable, newbie) US fan of the game I take more offence to you loyalists calling us idiotic, impressionable children. Do you poeple think we just belive everything he says just because he as a british accent? The utter contempt you show other fans of “your” game is disterbing, no wonder your Empire as declined over the past 200 years. If we her somthing, most of us will reserch the facts before forming a opinion but it seems that if anyones opinion differs from livertonians then you’ll send death threats to them, their familys and the young step daughters. For christs sake, is that how you honor the 96? By spilling more inocent blood? From what I’v heard on the news and in thease blogs maby Mr. Cohen is right about the city at least.
However wrong, misguilded or plain stupid Mr. Cohens opinion is, we still beleave in his right to have his own opinion and express it with out reprizal, and I thought you brits did to.
And on a lighter note, I personaly can on;y stand about 1/2 to 1 hr of his poorly produced, comercial heavy show. I get my current events from 606, 5 live, world football phone in and the pirate ship.
Love live Spoony!!
Long live the Blue side of Manchester!!!
steve , yer very very naive and I feel for you I really do .
I think he has a point for all u people who are wasting your time getting upset about this should realize that he is not souly blaming the fans, he is saying it was a combination of both police and fans. The point he made that the 2000 fans went into the stadium without tickets is true. that would never happen in the states and thats why we dont have these kind of problems
United18,
I’ll be more than happy to come on World Soccer Daily — but only after Cohen apologizes to his listeners and retracts his statements about Hillsborough that were incorrect.
Regarding any threatening e-mails or phone calls made to Steven Cohen, I want to publicly say that I do not condone such behavior, and I find it despicable that people would act that way. Any such comments do not reflect the views of EPL Talk.
Cheers,
The Gaffer
The Gaffer,
He already apologized about the incorrect facts, so its time for u to grow a pair and go on the show and express ur opinion to him and not over the internet in an article
Jimmy, when did he apologize to the Liverpool fans and his listeners on World Soccer Daily? As far as I’m aware, there’s been no apology and he has not retracted his inaccurate statements — although he did say he would retract his story about the 6,000-8,000 fans if he was wrong. But I haven’t heard him admit he was wrong yet.
In my two articles on EPL Talk about Cohen’s misinformation regarding Hillsborough, those aren’t my opinions. They’re the facts backed up with evidence. I’m still waiting to see or hear Cohen’s evidence to back up his claims.
Cheers,
The Gaffer
The way I see it Hillsborough was God’s answer for Heysel.
This is incredible. You guys need to grow up. There are people out there who think the american government was responsible for 9-11, so what should we threaten these people lives. It’s called FREE SPEECH. Get over it already!
Steven Cohen is a stupidly ignorant newspaper believer.
He’s obviously related to David Duckenfeld, the police officer responsible for the manslaughter of 96 football fans.
Back up your facts, or apologise and shut the hell up.
STOP INSULTING THE VICTIMS AND SURVIVORS OF HILLSBOROUGH
All you d**kheads that are leaving comments on here need to know the facts regarding the Hillsborough disaster. http://www.liverpoolbanter.co.uk/2008/04/hillsborough-for-dummies-facts.html. 96 innocent men, women and children lost their lives that day and all all you misinformed people who are leaving your worthless and unsubstantiated comments need to have more respect. YNWA
As a poster above here said send the links to the advertisers on http://www.worldsoccerdaily and Fox Football Fone in. Tell them why they lost your business and that you’re gonna tell all your friends and their friends etc etc
http://www.epltalk.com/steven-cohen-blames-liverpool-fans-for-hillsborough-disaster/5915
http://www.epltalk.com/steven-cohen-offers-liverpool-fans-no-hillsborough-apology
NO MONEY=NO SHOW=NO COHEN-SIMPLE!!!!
What’s with the picture of Cohen in an Arsenal shirt? Seems to me Gaffer that you’ve made this a bit of a personal vendetta. Kind of disappointed to be honest.
Gaffer…Your sound scared to speak to him. Have it out!!!
I think your “facts” are from the Taylor Report which is complete bullocks. Set up and defend your point.
The fact of the matter is that Mr. Cohen is correct.
End of Story
Mr. Harris,
You wrote: “With Cohen having so much influence over young impressionable soccer fans who listen to WSD who consider his words the gospel truth, Cohen has a responsibility to tell the truth. It’s about time someone stood up to Cohen and exposed his misinformation that he’s spreading. That’s why I decided to write these two articles…”
“…If he doesn’t apologize to his radio listeners, I’m concerned that he may spread his misinformation about what caused the Hillsborough Disaster to the weekly Fox Football Fone-In TV show that he co-hosts on Fox Soccer Channel. Having a loose cannon like Cohen on live TV is a risk that Fox has to determine whether it’s worth taking.”
Well THANK YOU for coming to our rescue, we of the general public, because we are so helpless, stupid and impressionable that we need someone like YOU to parse our information for us! THANK YOU for letting us know that Cohen’s word is NOT gospel! We didn’t know that until you came along and told us! GIVE ME A BREAK! Are you trying to be paternalistic and condescending or does it come to you naturally?
You try to sound detached and analytical about this, but it sounds to me like a not-so-well-disguised personal attack on Cohen. And the reason for that attack has probably a lot more to do with Steven Cohen’s vocal and long-held hatred of Liverpool FC and some of its supporters. And let me emphatically state that I don’t particularly care for Steven Cohen, his views, or Chelsea FC.
I am far, FAR more wary of people like you, Mr. Harris, who claim they want to “protect” the public from “dangerous misinformation”: it stinks of underhanded ulterior motives.
It’s terrible that people have been threatening Steven Cohen or anyone else. That should be condemned unreservedly.
However, that does not justify Steven’s position on what happened at Hillsborough. The fact that he, and people commenting here, feel that they can dismiss the Taylor Report out of hand as “complete bullocks”, but offer no explanation is totally unacceptable.
When 96 people are killed, you’d better have a sound reason for apportioning blame and not just cavalier speculation and conjecture. Hating Liverpool fans is not a good enough reason.
Gaffer, why are you so afraid to go on the show and talk one-on-one with him like a man? Stop hiding behind your blog like an internet tough-guy..
Clearly half of the people on here have selective hearing when it comes to Steven’s comments. First off, he’s not insulting the victims, everytime he says it was a terrible tragedy and how sorry he feels for the families involved. He’s also never said that the fans were the sole cause, he said it was a number of contributing factors, with the number of fans turning up without tickets being one of them. Frankly, this is the most logical and probably likely arguement. Liverpool fans just refuse to take any amount of blame, just look at Heysel.
Just off the ticker…. man u fans want an official apology from the now defunct British European Airways (BEA) for not having ice skates on the plane and from the Germans for not having a giant umbrella over the city of Munich to block the snow.
Get over it!
Mark,
As I have said to Steven in a seperate email correspondence, I have no problem apportioning blame for Hysel on rioting Liverpool fans. The evidence is clear. It does not therefore follow that a completely different set of Liverpool fans were in any way responsible for Hillsborough. We aren’t some homogenous group that you can pigeon hole with hackneyed old stereotypes. The evidence, painstakingly examined by Lord Justice Taylor, is that Liverpool fans were NOT to blame at Hillsborough.
I like to deal in evidence Mark, not mean spirited conjecture.
Steven does not deserve praise for having sympathy with the victims Mark. That is the very least we can expect from any half decent person. His condolences don’t balance out the misinformation he is spreading that lays blame without a shred of evidence.
Josh,
Thanks for your facile and trite comments on such a serious issue.
As it happens, there was plenty of finger pointing that went on after the Munich Air Crash. Read this article for more details…
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/manchester_united/article3279019.ece
It’s very sad that you find such trite amusement in someones struggle for justice, whether it’s Captain James Thain or the families of the 96. I pity you.
Jeremy,
certainly, I’ll agreeSteven doesn’t deserve praise for displaying sympathy, but it simply points out the fact to all those who seem to wish him dead that he does in fact show some compassion when it comes to this event. Here’s merely expressing his opinion, in a completely rational manner, and I don’t think people should be threatening his life and family for that. I have no problem with fans like you who are able to sensibly convey your side of the arguement, but those who seem to have a personal vendetta against him coughwriterofthisblogcough and seek to ruin his career and life just for a few misplaced comments are really no better than the man himself.
You people are crazy on this website. There is no “killing” Of World Soccer Daily. It is one of the best shows on U.S. Radio. (My opinion and FACT, Look at the Numbers) Steven has retracted his statement and doesn’t need to apologize because its HIS OPINION. He hasn’t changed his tune about Liverpool. He has always put responsibility on everyone involved with Hillsborough and Heysel. You’re putting statements together and trying to bash him. And all of your crazy followers SENDING DEATH THREATS AND ALL THIS OTHER NONSENSE is much more horrible than Cohen saying what he said.
You are disgraceful for that. Its cool not to like Cohen, so what. But when you take this personal for HIS OPINION and start to act like Neanderthals is terrible. Get a life
Disgraceful people. You are a
Mark,
I’m not going to defend or mitigate death threats. Sadly, it doesn’t surprise me, as there are a lot of morons out there who can’t have a reasonable discussion. However, I wouldn’t put the author of this blog in that catagory at all. That is toally unfair. He has set out the argument against Steven logically and methodically and as I can attest to, having corresponded with Steven myself, Mr Cohen is either unwilling or unable to provide evidence to support his counter argument.
Broadcasters have a responsibilty of trust Mark. If you are going to make the very serious allegation that, despite the available evidence, a group of people are partly to blame for the deaths of 96 people, then you are obliged to present your evidence for that claim. These are not just “misplaced comments” Mark. Steven has made this unsubtantiated and very serious allegation repeatedly, and refuses to back down.
If he made this kind of allegation about you or someone you love, I suspect you wouldn’t be so cavalier about it. I believe you would consider his career a very small price to pay for clearing your name. In any case, Steven is in the position to stop all of this by either providing evidence that supports his claims, or retracting and appologising. I fail to see why he is the only one afforded free speech and we don’t have the right to reply.
Jeremy,
the reality is that Steven is simply stating what, in all honesty, most football fans believe to be the truth. Unlike the oridinary football fan however, Steven is in the public spotlight and therefore open to attacks from the public. While people expect a certain standard of these media types and are quick to jump on their backs, the truth is that really Steven is just an ordinary fan and that’s why he acts the way he does.
Everyone has the right to their opinion and those fans who are offended have the right to speak out, just not in the threatening way that some are conducting themselves. Frankly, I expect better from a set of supporters who appear so humble when remembering this tragic event but then turn into a bunch of raving fanatics as soon as somone says even one slightly controversial remark against them. Just look at how they’ve vilified Itandje and blown the incident with him out of proportion. These are the same fans who ridicule the Munich disaster everytime Man U travel to Anfield but then suddenly become all defensive and sensitive whenever Hillsborough is brought up.
Mark,
Firstly, it would be nice if you could avoid generalisations such as “they” and “these are the same fans”. That attitude betrays a prejudice that might explain why some people are so quick to tie Hysel to Hillsborough, despite the fact that these are two completely seperate incidents. Some Liverpool fans behave despicably, but like every other set of fans, the vast majority are peacable and law-abiding.
Secondly, I would take issue with your assertion that “most football fans believe [this] to be the truth.” Yet again, I would ask you to provide some evidence to support this claim, not just expect me to take it for granted.
Furthermore, even if that claim has any merit, it is merely more proof that lies and innuendo spread by the likes of Steven Cohen and Kelvin McKenzie MUST be challenged, lest they become the percieved truth.
Everyone has the right to their own opinion Mark, not their own facts.\
PS – By way of illustrating that I’m not a “raving fanatic” who can’t take crticism of the football club I support – I agree with you about Charles Itandje. The reaction to his childish behaviour has been way over the top. Do you think if Fernando Torres had done this, Liverpool fans would be calling for him to be sacked? I don’t think so!
This smearing of Liverpool fans just never stops. I see the usual rabid bitter Mancs and right wing nazi supporting Chelsea morons etc have joined in now, taking the moral high ground on fan behaviour.
Arsenal and Chelsea fans have been singing about Auschwitz for decades.
These are the same fans who hiss the sound of gas chambers at Spurs fans, because they have a large Jewish following, Why no condemnation from Steve Cohen?
http://www.timeout.com/london/sport/features/4221/Anti-Semitism_in_football.html
By the way, most fans are old enough to remember Manchester United fans, throwing bottles filled with urine, golf balls studded with nails, being attacked inside and outside the ground and at the railway stations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_(football)
And what about all of those Manchester United and Chelsea supporting morons who sing that despicable paedophile song, it even references 4-year-old Madeline McCann. How big and brave.
http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/Paper-talk-Fergie-plea-over.4674649.jp
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/nov/08/premierleague-arsenal
As for Hillsborough, they sing 96 is not enough. 96 men women and children died at a football match, (the youngest to die at Hillsborough was aged 10).
As for “getting over” Hillsborough, people would have gotten over it a long time ago if it hadn’t been for the vile lies perpetuated by scum like Steve Cohen and his inbred fan club
You want self-pity? “Busby’s” babes were grown men not children and it happened 50 years ago. Manchester United fans whinge about the morons who sang about Munich in the seventies and eighties while setting up web sites selling T Shirts, hoodies and badges celebrating the 39 deaths at Heysel! They sing: “where’s your Munich song” (because it hardly gets sung any more), then they act all shocked when some moron sings it back to them. It then gives them the excuse to go into their bitter vile repertoire of disgusting songs. Steve Cohen must love you cowards and cretins for helping him pay the bills.
George Orwell once said that sport was war by other means. Some of you idiots on here prove his point.
I’d love to know where this ticketless fans idea comes from. There is no factual basis for it at all.
My father in law was on duty in Hillsborough that day and solely blames the police officers outside the ground and catergorically states there was no issue with either ticketless or drunken fans. Hey, but what does he know, he was only a copper for 30 years.
Jeremy,
by they I generally meant those more irrational fans,the ones who seem to be making the biggest fuss out of this ordeal, the generalization was a fault on my typing. I respect your views and the way you argue them but what angers me is these particular fans who would go to such lengths to threaten Steven and his family. I don’t really wish to debate this matter any longer as I feel I’ve said all that needs to be said. Really this whole event has been blown out of proportion and I hope it goes away without any harm coming from it. In a perfect world Steven would apoligize for his comments, so should those who tried to intimidate him, and then we could all move on. Sadly though, I think I’m hoping for a bit too much there.
Thanks for that Paul. Not that Steven Cohen, or some people here, will pay any attention to an eye-witness account from a veteran police officer which corroborates the other eye witness testimony from that day.
I mean, who cares about the truth, when “everybody knows” that Liverpool fans are scum, hey?
You people saying it is only Liverpool fans who are offended by the comments by Steven Cohen need to wake up, or better yet try actually making a trip over to England some time and ask how ALL the English feel about these events. I’m not a Liverpool supporter, I’m a life long Evertonian who can’t stand LFC, but I understand the terrible tragedy that took place that day and have full respect for those who lost their lives, who lost loved ones, and were forever changed by those events. It was not thousands of Liverpool fans storming the stadium that caused this disaster, all the evidence proves that this did not in fact happen. Read the damn report and subsequent studies on the tragedy and educate yourself instead of listening to one pompous Londoner’s opinion on an event that killed nearly 100 people from a city that he hates, as he has trashed the people of Liverpool too many times to count. His opinion of these events is fueled by his disgust of the people of Liverpool, it is prejudice against those from Liverpool that makes him feel the way he does. This was the last straw for me, I can’t listen to that man’s show any more. I put up with years of bashing the people of Liverpool, both blue and red, just to get my football fix in this country. But I can’t take it any more, I’m done with that disgraceful poor excuse for a human being.
Mark,
In an ideal world, people would read the facts before forming an opinion and therefore Steven wouldn’t have made the comments in the first place. It really is deeply sad that there are people like Steven who are so stubborn and intransigent that they cannot bring themselves to admit when they are wrong.
I think you underestimate the depth of feeling about this travesty when you say it’s “been blown out of proportion “. After 20 years nobody has ever been made accountable and punished for the 96 deaths and public perception of what happened that day is constantly being muddied by irresponsible people like Mr Cohen who feed on the sick prejudices of the feeble minded. None of this justifies death threats, as I’ve said repeatedly, but please don’t belittle how important this is to many many people.
I too, wish that this is resolved soon, without any harm coming to Mr Cohen. I just wish that he was as concerned about the emotional harm he is doing to thousands of people with his lies.
The point is, nearly 100 people died on that day, and it was preventable. Father’s watched their son or sons die next to them, while they were helpless as they were being crushed themselves. Children lost fathers, wives lost children and fathers, and even if the person made it out alive, many were forever damaged mentally and many suicides have ensued, marriages lost, relationships between child and parent lost or altered irreparably. The police would not let the paramedics into the ground, causing countless lives that could have been saved to be lost. Police stood and watched as people were crying for help, as they and their friends and loved ones were being crushed. Police funneled people who had tickets for other areas of the ground into that one stand. And even though this has all been proven, not one person was held accountable for the deaths of 96, and the ruined lives of thousands of others. Not one police officer or official was held accountable or punished for their actions that made these deaths either possible, or caused a greater loss of life due to not letting medical professionals into the ground to assist the injured and dying. This is why there are so many still crying out for justice, because justice has still not been handed out. And again, I’m not a Liverpool supporter, I’m an Everton supporter.
You’re telling me that you truly believe that the fans and absolutely NO blame at all for trying to pack into Hillsborough? They should not have opened the gates, but if they couldn’t go forward, why push from behind? There is shared responsibility.
Cohen has an unreasonable dislike for Liverpool, but for Reds fans to claim they are completely blameless is ridiculous.
Is anyone from EPL Talk going to come on WSD? ??? I think it could be a lively and interesting debate! as opposed to just sitting on a laptop and scrutinizing people who do a live two hour radio show five days a week….
Ryan,
I’ll be more than happy to come on World Soccer Daily — but only after Cohen apologizes to his listeners and retracts his statements about Hillsborough that were incorrect.
Cheers,
The Gaffer
ObjectiveMan 04.24.09 at 10:50 am
You’re telling me that you truly believe that the fans and absolutely NO blame at all for trying to pack into Hillsborough? They should not have opened the gates, but if they couldn’t go forward, why push from behind? There is shared responsibility.
Cohen has an unreasonable dislike for Liverpool, but for Reds fans to claim they are completely blameless is ridiculous.
——————————
Jesus Christ, this is unbelievable. Why don’t you READ the Taylor Report?
The number of fans was barely over the Leppings Lane end capacity of 10,100. The reason people were crushed to death was because police officers directed people into the two central pens while the two side pens had plenty of room.
It’s like trying to pour four pints of beer into two pint glasses and then blaming the beer for the spillage.
What is wrong with you people?
the juve fans lose out from this article. no one admits to the liverpool’s fans fault for their murders.
now if we think that there is a chance some of the liverpool fans that killed the juve fans, were also in that stadium in 1989, then it is shocking to even comprehend.
ArthurArseGooner 04.24.09 at 1:08 pm
the juve fans lose out from this article. no one admits to the liverpool’s fans fault for their murders.
now if we think that there is a chance some of the liverpool fans that killed the juve fans, were also in that stadium in 1989, then it is shocking to even comprehend.
——————————-
What the hell are you talking about? 14 Liverpool fans were convicted of manslaughter after Heysel.
Only complete idiots continue to deny the responsibility of Liverpool fans. Complete idiots similar to you, who continues to deny the INNOCENCE of Liverpool fans at Hillsborough, a completely seperate incident.
Cohen is a fool. It’s a shame because the rest of his show is really good. He tries to disguise his lack of knowledge by constantly ranting about thieving scousers. Chelsea had worse hooligans than Liverpool in the 80’s but nobody noticed them because they weren’t in Europe. Cohen doesn’t know about this because he spent his Saturdays at Twickenham. I think he’s been in the U.S too long and adopted the theory that to be interesting, you have to be loud and confrontational like Limbaugh and O’Reilly. The irony is that his rants say more about his own character flaws than anyone else’s.
jeremy i meant that the fans are responsible for everything. dufuss
youre an idiot jeremy. deny shmmeny. go tell someone that cares.
one of my away messages on aim is hllsborough 96 youll never walk alone,even though im an arsenal fan. they were responsible but it doesnt mean i dont care about the lives that were lost. so deny shmeny, im just saying there were some that were innocent, like the ones that lost their lives, but there were others that were responsible, dont tell from all the thousands, not one pulled any shenanigans that day? please, dont be so ignorant. i wasnt denying their innocence, but denying their responsibility doesnt mean i dont feel like that day was tragic. debating this wont bring them back. and when someone doesnt agree with you, doesnt make them an idiot. thats debate 101.
i dont think everyone among the liverpool fans was responsible, but its ignorant to think that the fans coming from the same culture that was a part of the murders of the juventus fans, played no part at all.
but to understand where im coming from, i have to once again say i dont blame them for the 96, but they shouldnt be considered innocent either. for example, when a car hits another car that suddenly stops because a kid runs on the road to fetch a ball from a playground, the car that hits the suddenly stopped car is the one that is considered responsible. but its obvious that everyone in that case was responsible. the kid who didnt stop to consider the passing cars, the car that suddenly stopped, as well as the car that hit the first car because it didnt keep enough distance away from the car it hit.
while the police were responsible for their mistakes and should be tried for manslaughter, the liverpool fans werent innocent either.
its not a black and white world. youre ignorant if you think it it. sorry. but remember, you can not call a person that doesnt agree with you, an idiot, because that is an idiotic thing to do.
the fans were responsible for everything, the juve killings and partly for hillsborough, and the police are responsible for the deaths. can that make sense? idk but i just wanted to clarify my statements.
Jesus Christ, this is unbelievable. Why don’t you READ the Taylor Report?
The number of fans was barely over the Leppings Lane end capacity of 10,100. The reason people were crushed to death was because police officers directed people into the two central pens while the two side pens had plenty of room.
It’s like trying to pour four pints of beer into two pint glasses and then blaming the beer for the spillage.
What is wrong with you people?
—————————————————————————
you’re an idiot, beer can’t stop itself fro forcing it’s way into bottles.
people could have had commonsense, not push, shove, trample
it’s hard to understand why shared responsibility is scoffed at, clearly everyone had a part to play, obviously no one meant it, it’s just what happened.
well well steven cohen well let me tell you that your just ignorant , we lost a loved one that day and he was no hooligan and did not drink as blood tests came back clean if you took the timme to read up abt hillsbourgh you would know the truth, we families are sick to death of people being so ignorant about this and maybe tides will turn and we will start suing the ignorant people who direspect the dead….. i will be putting in a compliant about you mr cohen but mr is too poliet to call person like you…… so ask yourself why your sponsers are pulling out we in liverpool have one big family we all stick together and anyone who disrepects those who died will be told justice 4 the 96
To all of you who are boycotting World Soccer Daily:
Don’t you realize what’s going on here? The Gaffer is merely using Mr. Cohen’s comments and your knee-jerk reaction to anything related to Hillsborough to sabotage against a rival media outlet for his own personal gain. Hope you enjoy being a tool of corporate malfeasance.
Oh, and Gaffer, I notice that you are continuing to duck the issue by deleting my posts. You’re proving me right by doing so.
Wow Gaff. Never thought I’d see the day when you would take someone’s comment, twist it around, and damage their career all for you gain (increased traffic to your website)
Rich and Eric,
I have not twisted any comments around, and have not used the case for my own personal gain. I was simply stating the facts in an objective manner.
In the meantime, I’m still waiting to hear from Cohen an admission that he was wrong, that he has retracted his statements and to hear an apology to his listeners and Liverpool fans.
Cheers,
The Gaffer
webby
“you’re an idiot, beer can’t stop itself fro forcing it’s way into bottles.”
What an embarrassing statement on your behalf. Who forced their way into what? And based on what evidence?
Fans were directed, by stewards and police, into the overcrowded central pens, which they could not see were overcrowded until they were inside and even then not unless they were near the front. Before going through the turnstiles they did not know that those pen were overcrowded. Once they were in it was too late. Fans nearer the front were screaming at police and officials that there was a problem but it wasn’t noticed until far too late.
Engage your brain. Think about it. Look through the sequence of events. There was not a noticeable number of fans without tickets. There was no trampling or forcing. Fans (WITH TICKETS) were specifically told to go into those overcrowded pens instead of the emptier side ones.
This forum is serving as fantastic example for those who don’t know much about what happened and might be wanting to separate fact from fiction.
On the one hand you have those who are making very rash statements, providing exactly zero evidence to back any of it up, and making the kind of hateful, ignorant generalisations about other fans they accuse others of. I wonder if they know that they are exhibiting exactly the kind of behaviour they think they are condemning.
On the other hand you have people who are providing evidence that ratifies the utter falsehood of what these morons are saying. I desperately hope lots of people read this blog. The comments section could not provide a better indication as to the weight of the arguments on either side.
Motive: EPL Talk and World Soccer Daily have rival podcasts, except Mr. Cohen has a daily radio platform and weekly TV platform, things you clearly want, as evidenced by this statement:
“Without a doubt, Cohen is the voice of soccer in America. Since the launch of his network in May 2002, Cohen has succeeded in growing World Soccer Daily into the must-listen show about soccer in the United States. Coupled with his weekly co-host slot on Fox Soccer Channel’s Fox Football Fone-In show, 46-year-old Cohen has built a sizeable following, many of whom are impressionable fans who are relatively new to the sport and hang on his every word.”
And if Mr. Cohen were to have his sponsors pull their advertising due to boycotts and terroristic threats from Liverpool supporters, he loses his show, his podcast, and his website. You stand to benefit from that situation, whether you want to admit it or not.
Furthermore, because of the competitive situation, you cannot simply claim your article was “objective,” anymore than a “fact” produced by Fox News or the tobacco industry can be considered “objective.”
Means: Despite your claim that you incited nothing, the mere mention of Hillsborough is enough to incite Liverpool fans into a frenzy like mentioning gun control to an NRA lunatic or pointing out an abortion clinic to a right to lifer. You’re a soccer fan, you knew this was going to happen, so save us the pathetic ignorance plea.
All you had to do was say that Rival X was making comments about Hillsborough, which you did, cite the Taylor Report, which you did, and compare him to The Sun, which you did, and let the Liverpool fans do the dirty work for you.
Opportunity: Mr. Cohen opened his mouth. No further explanation needed.
So you can make all your well-crafted apologies and the contrived after-the-fact condemnations you want. This is exactly what you wanted to happen. And no amount of post deleting, fake condemnations, sending your minions at MLS Talk and ducking World Soccer Daily will change that.
Do I necessarily agree with Mr. Cohen 100% of the time? Hardly. He is hyper-critical of the MLS. He doesn’t understand why American sports are run the way they are run, particularly why American sports need a salary cap, and he doesn’t realize that many of the operating procedures of the MLS are based on the abject failure of the NASL to adopt a sustainable business model. But I don’t feel the need to incite terroristic threats against him or his sponsors.
Rich,
I listened to Cohen’s show on April 13th, and was repulsed by the comments he made. I decided to write an objective article about it and backed it up with facts (something which Cohen has still been unable to provide).
I did not write the articles intentionally to gain anything from it other than to make the general public aware of the misinformation he had been spreading. If you don’t believe me, then I’m sorry.
And I did not write the articles thinking or even knowing that Liverpool supporters would respond the way they did. But, as you can see, Cohen has touched a nerve with not only Liverpool supporters but supporters of other clubs from around the world who – along with me – refuse to sit back and let Cohen spread misinformation regarding Hillsborough. It’s time that someone stood up against his opinions which are very damaging to the American soccer public.
I’ve been running EPL Talk since 2005 and have prided myself on writing informative articles regarding the Premier League and the media coverage of the league on a daily basis.
Like I’ve said repeatedly, I will not be willing to go on World Soccer Daily until after Cohen admits he was wrong, retracts his statements and makes an apology to his listeners and Liverpool supporters.
99% of the comments posted to EPL Talk are added to the site, uncensored. But your comments you posted this morning would be deemed as spam.
Cheers,
The Gaffer
Quote: “I listened to Cohen’s show on April 13th, and was repulsed by the comments he made. I decided to write an objective article about it and backed it up with facts (something which Cohen has still been unable to provide).”
Bill O’Reilly is routinely repulsed by comments made by Keith Olbermann, but any comments he makes about Olbermann are as “objective” as your comments about Cohen. You compete with Cohen, like O’Reilly competes with Olbermann, so anything you say cannot be considered as “objective” by any rational-thinking human being. Anyone can cite the Taylor Report out of context and try to pass it off as a fact.
Quote: “I did not write the articles intentionally to gain anything from it other than to make the general public aware of the misinformation he had been spreading. If you don’t believe me, then I’m sorry.”
The fact that you are competing with World Soccer Daily for advertising dollars means no rational human being can believe you, anymore than they can believe AIG didn’t really want to take those bonuses from a dying company, or that Enron didn’t really mean to cook it’s books. You are a corporate saboteur practicing checkbook journalism, pure and simple.
Quote: “And I did not write the articles thinking or even knowing that Liverpool supporters would respond the way they did.”
I don’t know who you’re trying to fool this statement, but keep trying. They say a lie repeated long enough becomes the truth. /sarcasm
Please. You’ve clearly been a fan long enough to know that when you push certain Hillsborough buttons on Liverpool fans, they attack like one of Michael Vick’s pit bulls. You may be able to fool some people with that line but the rest of us know better.
Quote “But, as you can see, Cohen has touched a nerve with not only Liverpool supporters but supporters of other clubs from around the world who – along with me – refuse to sit back and let Cohen spread misinformation regarding Hillsborough. It’s time that someone stood up against his opinions which are very damaging to the American soccer public.”
So you say the Liverpool fans were not at fault at Hillsborough. Then you blame the Liverpool fans, the unwitting dupes whom you’ve manipulated, for your corporate sabotage scheme. What a load of hypocrisy.
“I’ve been running EPL Talk since 2005 and have prided myself on writing informative articles regarding the Premier League and the media coverage of the league on a daily basis.”
Wow, a whole 4 years and you chose to ruin that reputation in a week with one hit piece on a rival company.
Quote “Like I’ve said repeatedly, I will not be willing to go on World Soccer Daily until after Cohen admits he was wrong, retracts his statements and makes an apology to his listeners and Liverpool supporters.”
In other words, not only are you a white collar criminal, you are a coward to boot.
Quote: “99% of the comments posted to EPL Talk are added to the site, uncensored. But your comments you posted this morning would be deemed as spam.”
Translating Gaffer-ese to English, “Disagreeing with my point of view is spam”
I agree with Cohen. Too bad he has to wait till he’s in America to say it. He is completely right that there is shared responsibility for what happened between the Liverpool fans, who showed up with false or no tickets expecting to get in, the Police, and the stadium. We’ve all seen the footage and there is no chance the Liverpool fans had nothing to do with it. Its time they accept that it was partially their fault. And why, pray tell, have you not taken their offer to go on their show?
Jaime, read the above comments. I will not be willing to go on World Soccer Daily until after Cohen admits he was wrong, retracts his statements and makes an apology to his listeners and Liverpool supporters.
Rich, I did not cite the Taylor Report out of context. For every inaccurate statement Cohen made, I backed it up with the exact paragraph number and a link to the Taylor Report which refuted his inaccurate statement.
Like I’ve said countless times before, Cohen has yet to provide ONE piece of evidence that backs up his claims.
Regarding Hillsborough, I have never blamed the Liverpool fans and I have never manipulated them. If you have some time, read the 20th anniversary commemoration I wrote regarding Hillsborough at http://www.epltalk.com/where-were-you-on-april-15-1989/5883 — which includes several links to articles and podcast interviews I’ve conducted in the past on the topic.
Rich, what I find quite interesting is that rather than trying to debate the main topic and the misinformation that Cohen has spewed, you’re trying to change the topic and deflect it towards me. Like I said before, all I reported was the facts. Let’s see some of the facts that you and Cohen have to back up your claims that Liverpool fans were solely or partly responsible for the Hillsborough Disaster.
Cheers,
The Gaffer
The fact that even some of the fans showed up without real tickets trying to get in is fact enough for having partial resposibility for the disaster. I think you should stop hiding behind your computer and go on the show. The only reason you wont is because you know you are wrong and cant handle the pressure of backing up what you say without having 30 minutes to research.
Jaime,
The Liverpool supporters were exonerated by the Taylor Interim Report. Sure, there were probably some fans who were able to get into Hillsborough that didn’t have tickets, but how many were there? Approximately 24, but do you think 24 fans could cause a crush when there were 10,100 other fans in the stadium?
And what if 24 supporters made it into the ground without tickets? Does that make the 10,100 Liverpool supporters responsible for the crushing? No, it does not. And does it mean that the 24 were even involved in the crush at all? No.
Your claim that Liverpool supporters were partly to blame (as Cohen also insists) is weak beyond belief.
The root cause for the Hillsborough Disaster was the failure of police control.
And here’s the evidence regarding the number of ticketless fans (where are your facts?):
“Sheffield Wednesday FC’s own admission count system showed the terrace did not exceed its 10,100 capacity (for the Leppings Lane end). As part of their analysis, the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) counted the number of [Liverpool] supporters entering the ground, including those through the turnstiles, through Gate C and even those who climbed over the turnstiles. They gave three admission figures based on their analysis. Their first figure was 9,267, their ‘best estimate’ was 9,734, and their third figure was a ‘maximum estimate’ of 10,124. The HSE report stated it was unlikely that the terrace exceeded 10,124 and that total admissions were approximately equal to the designated capacity of 10,100 people. Taylor surmised there was no substance to the allegation that ticketless fans caused the Disaster,” The Hillsborough Football Disaster: Context And Consequences, page 17.
Source: http://www.hfdinfo.com/include/download4.php
Instead of taking Cohen’s words for the gospel truth and believing everything he says, do some homework. Have you read the Taylor Report?
Cheers,
The Gaffer
RaiderRich2001,
Whatever the merits of the Gaffer’s argument (I have no interest in getting involved in this imbroglio!), the questions about his motivations are an example of the poisoning the well fallacy. If the Gaffer were providing us with testimony to the effect that Mr. Cohen was wrong, then you would be right to challenge his status as a legitimate authority (being disinterested is one criteria).
He has, however, provided an argument. Given this fact, if he is incorrect, then it is the merits of the argument which matter. O’Reilly is certainly not an objective observer, but if he makes an argument, pointing to this bias does not refute the argument.
I will also note that 99% of my comments on this site are critical, often of the Gaffer himself! I have never been censored.
I dont care what the Taylor Report says, although yes, I have read it. I dont take Cohens word for it. This is strictly my opinion. All you need to do is watch the video mate! know from what Ive read, seen, and heard that the Scousers have some blame. They just dont want to admit it just like with Heysel. They just want to make themselves out to be martyrs so they can erase their bad name. Everyone knows that they share part of the blame but they cant say anything because your lot will come out against them and try to smear their name. And like I said, grow some bollocks and stop hiding behind your computer.
The Gaffer wrote:
“The Liverpool supporters were exonerated by the Taylor Interim Report. Sure, there were probably some fans who were able to get into Hillsborough that didn’t have tickets, but how many were there? Approximately 24, but do you think 24 fans could cause a crush when there were 10,100 other fans in the stadium?”
Yeah and OJSimpson was found not guilty for the killing of his (ex) wife. Give me a break with this Taylor Report this Taylor report that. The police didn’t push the fans onto each other, they didn’t put a gun to the fans head and say go there even though it’s full and you can barely breath in there! They didn’t shoot in the air to force the crowd into panic. All they did was open the gates and boom FANS came running in throwing cautions to the wind! Could the authorities have handled things better? YES! Were they partly to blame? YES! However were the fans pushing into each other crushing each others partly to blame too in this tragedy? ABSOLUTELY YES! A crowd going to an event still have some guidelines to follow and some responsibility to make sure they get there safely and peacefully. Thinking otherwise is taking the fans for robots just doing what they’re programmed to do.
Well put Pakapala.
Quote: “I did not cite the Taylor Report out of context.”
Yes you did. Just like Alex Jones looks at the 9/11 commission report and concludes that President Bush flew the planes himself into the Trade Center.
You want facts? Here are the facts.
FACT: EPL Talk and World Soccer Daily are in competition for the limited ad dollars targeting the American soccer demographic.
FACT: EPL Talk stands to benefit if World Soccer Daily is cancelled by Sirius due to boycotts or threats because it means the end of their podcast and the end of their website. This would drive traffic to EPL Talk’s podcast and website.
The above two are what we call “Motive”
FACT: Liverpool fans are driven to rage by any combination of the mention of Hillsborough, The Sun, The Taylor Report, and the team an author or talking head supports.
A similar phenomenon happens when you mention airplanes and Munich around Manchester United fans, hooliganism around Millwall fans, the non-Castillian speaking regions of Spain around Real Madrid fans, or left-wing politics around or Lazio fans, so to anyone thinks I’m singling out Liverpool fans, no this is not exclusively the province of any one team’s supporters or soccer fans of a particular nation. Hell, I know Indiana Pacer basketball fans who still defend Ron Artest for his actions surrounding the “Malice at the Palace”, although these have become remarkably fewer over the years.
FACT: The Gaffer cannot claim ignorance of the above, because he himself has been a soccer fan for years and should know all the things one group of soccer fans uses to get a rise out of another group of soccer fans.
FACT: EPL Talk has a platform by which to rile up the passions of said Liverpool fans, and used said platform, with a well placed article containing all the above triggers.
And the above facts are what we call “Means”
FACT: Steven Cohen practically handed the opportunity to The Gaffer when he made his comments about Hillsborough disaster, which he fully has a right to say, even if he is wrong.
FACT: Means + Motive + Opportunity = Criminal Act.
FACT: The Gaffer has deleted posts pointing out his guilt (under the guise of deleting spam), refused to answer his critics when given a platform, and used MLS Talk as a further proxy attack on his corporate rival.
If The Gaffer was not guilty, he would not need to resort to such tactics.
FACT: The Gaffer, who has accused me of “deflecting the blame” unto him, has in fact, deflected the blame for his corporate malfeasance onto the Liverpool fans he has incited, the very ones he is claiming to defend, by saying the following:
“But, as you can see, Cohen has touched a nerve with not only Liverpool supporters but supporters of other clubs from around the world who – along with me – refuse to sit back and let Cohen spread misinformation regarding Hillsborough.”
“Rich, what I find quite interesting is that rather than trying to debate the main topic and the misinformation that Cohen has spewed, you’re trying to change the topic and deflect it towards me.”
Well, if you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen. You opened yourself up to criticism the moment you decided to write about a rival company. Your shameless attempt to profit off the tragedy of Hillsborough and manipulate the passions surrounding the disaster for your own personal gain, is an equal injustice to the 96 fans who died that day as anything the South Yorkshire police, Sheffield Wednesday (the stadium owners), the FA, or any other entity found to have caused the tragedy.
If the discussion hasn’t come around to your actions, maybe it’s high time it did, because you are no saint in this matter. And the people whom you have attacked owe you nothing until you apologize for:
1) Attempting to sabotage a rival
2) Inciting death threats against your rival and the sponsors of said rival.
3) Using the Hillsborough disaster to line your own pocket
And don’t try and lump myself and Mr. Cohen together. In case you missed my earlier post, or have conveniently forgotten it. I firmly disagree with Cohen’s handling of the issues surrounding MLS and American sport, to which he is equally ignorant as he is of the events surrounding Hillsborough. However, nothing, not his ignorance on MLS or the salary cap, not his ignorance of Hillsborough, not his ignorance on a lot of things, justifies your article, your attempt at corporate sabotage of a rival, or the incitement of violence in general. You are equally as wrong as he is.
JM… The Sun poisoned the Hillsborough well long before anyone else did, and the incendiary article by The Gaffer and the actions of the Liverpool fans The Gaffer has manipulated are a sad result of that.
And if this were a mere debate, you would be right about the facts. However, The Gaffer has chosen to yell the soccer equivalent of “Fire” in a crowded theater of Liverpool fans. At that point this ceases to be a debate and becomes and incitement of violence.
I am kind of a newbie to the game and I am by no means an expert on the Hillsborough disaster; in fact this article has been the primary peace of research which I looked at on this subject. When I read through this article I realized that without question the police and the infrastructure created this disaster. That being said, concerning the issue of people showing up without tickets, I believe that you guys are missing the point. The numbers that were quoted made it sound like the stadium was at least filled to capacity if not overfilled and that is just with people who had tickets. So if any people did show up without tickets they would have pushed that number of people in the stadium over the limit. Let me start out by declaring my feelings about the issue, I should state my belief which is that if I snuck into a movie theater without a ticket and got I caught, I should face jail time. With that in mind, even though you report that it was only a small number of people who showed up without a ticket, if those people tried to get into the park without a ticket they are criminals, and should potentially face jail time, and I say this because those people mad the disaster caused by the police and the infrastructure worse. I don’t really see how this last point can be disputed, and if I am not mistaken isn’t this the point that Steven was trying to make. If I am wrong please tell me.
Rich,
I don’t consider World Soccer Daily a competitor. They run a podcast. I run a website (yes, I run a podcast too, but it’s not daily; it’s released once every two weeks). 99% of my advertising is run through an ad network. 99% of World Soccer Daily’s advertising is done direct. Cohen’s website doesn’t run an ad network. Cohen’s advertisers don’t advertise on my site.
1) I have not attempted to sabotage a rival. I simply wrote two articles regarding inaccurate statements that Cohen made.
2) I have not incited any death threats against Cohen or sponsors of World Soccer Daily.
3) I have not used the Hillsborough Disaster to line my own pocket.
End of story.
Cheers,
The Gaffer
PS — PJ, see my response to your point at http://www.epltalk.com/steven-cohen-blames-liverpool-fans-for-hillsborough-disaster/5915/comment-page-4/#comment-43487
“I don’t consider World Soccer Daily a competitor.”
You don’t consider World Soccer Daily a competitor? How very convenient. Do you write your own corporate nonsense or do you have PR people do this for you? Also were you waving your hand as you typed this? You know that only works in Star Wars movies, right?
You both have podcasts targeting the same niche market. You both have blogs targeting the same niche market. You both run advertising directed at the same niche market. Despite your denials to the contrary, you two are competing for the same niche market.
“Cohen’s advertisers don’t advertise on my site.”
The ad for Ruffneck Wear on your page begs to differ. They are one of WSD major advertisers, and judging by the fact that they have a promotional code related to your site, one of *your* major advertisers as well.
Pwned
“1) I have not attempted to sabotage a rival. I simply wrote two articles regarding inaccurate statements that Cohen made.”
You brought up Hillsborough, The Sun, The Taylor Report and other incendiary topics for Liverpool fans on a blog that many of them read. That’s yelling fire in a crowded theater. You directed your comments at a company rival. And if he goes out of buisness due to lost sponsors or he dies at the hands of a crazed fan, who benefits? You.
“2) I have not incited any death threats against Cohen or sponsors of World Soccer Daily.”
You know, you can stop playing ignorant of the feelings of Liverpool fans anytime now. You’re not a soccer neophyte, you knew what would happen. Ignorance is no defense for a crime.
“3) I have not used the Hillsborough Disaster to line my own pocket.”
You sure got a lot of unique views out of it. All the better to increase your ad rates. And you get a lot more benefits if World Soccer Daily goes off the air. So yes, as much as you try to deny it, you used the Hillsborough Disaster to line your pocket like Halliburton was using all the deaths in Iraq to line theirs. And you owe the 96 an apology for doing so.
“End of story.”
If that’s the end, then you deserve no apology.
Rich, Ruffneck Wear is not a paid sponsor of EPL Talk. Yes, they have had an ad on the site, but it’s not a paid ad. I get a commission off each sale of a scarf from EPL Talk, but technically they’re not a paid advertiser.
And the last time I checked, World Soccer Daily is not a blog. The last time they had a blog post that was an article was almost two weeks ago.
Cheers,
The Gaffer
I think Steven is being misunderstood. If I remember correctly he has condemned anti-Semetic chants by Chelsea fans. His father is a Tottenham supporter and I remember he was incredulous after the recent incident. He regularly speaks out against racist and homophobic chants in the game.
I think his argument about “responsibility” is misplaced. As it is the problem of authorities to create an environment that is safe. But given he has always expressed sympathy for the victims these seems to me to be a tempest in a tea pot. Is his opinion wrong, yes. Is it uninformed, yes. But he is a pundit. He is NOT a journalist. He is a fan who is good on the radio and gives his opinions. Many of them interesting, a not insignificant portion of them hopelessly uninformed.
Cohen talked at length about the Ivory Coast tragedy as well. He was unwilling to bury it as just more loss of life in Africa. He is a good guy.
I understand that Liverpool fans as well as Scousers in general face substantial prejudice. That prejudice revealed itself in the wake of the incident and the way the government and news outlets like the Sun responded. However, at the same time irrational defensiveness is no good response. THe death threats and even the inability to see the nuance (though still wrong of Stephen’s point).
It is also notable that MLK Jr. when asked about the bus boycott stated that he did not see Boycott’s as moral if they were simply a form of punishment. What is hoped to be accomplished by sponsors pulling out of WSD? Steven won’t likely change his opinion. The US will be deprived of its only daily show that promotes the game and educates American fans. Do we really want to lose the likes of Tim Vickery, Robbie Earle etc. because of this? What do you hope to accomplish by threatening Steven or trying to bring down the show? It won’t bring the victims back. Also the fact that Steven is dumb about hillsboro only for the simple minded means he does not criticize anti-semitic Chelsea fans. We need to cool the temperature on this thing. It has gone way crazy and those invovlved and pushing it have no end game that is either moral or just. Is bringing down the one American radio show that has even brought the disaster to our attention a just result?
Follow MLK Jr. design a set of tactics aimed at those who have committed the injustice. It is hard to see Cohen in the role. He should not be the target of frustrations about the response of public authorities (which he has condemned), the SUN (which he has also condemned) or the history of prejudice against Scouser’s.
“Ruffneck Wear is not a paid sponsor of EPL Talk. Yes, they have had an ad on the site, but it’s not a paid ad. I get a commission off each sale of a scarf from EPL Talk, but technically they’re not a paid advertiser.”
You get money from them, so it’s a paid ad regardless of your semantics, which means you are wrong about not competing for Cohen’s advertisers. You say you’re providing “objective facts” when you are clearly lying about your own site and trying to weasel your way out.
Do you really believe the stuff you type? Because most rational people can see right through it.
You are a competitor to World Soccer Daily whether you choose to admit to such or not. You incited violence against the people on the WSD and their advertisers with your article, whether you choose to admit it or not. You stand to benefit if World Soccer Daily shuts down, whether or not you choose to admit it or not. And you deserve nothing until your apologise to the 96 for capitalizing on their tragedy and to WSD for your corporate sabotage.
I see all the posts that dont agree with Liverpool fans that they were partly responsible for what happened at Hillsboro have been deleted,theres a surprise.
Jacko, no offense, but this isn’t about what the Liverpool fans did or didn’t do anymore. This is about The Gaffer using his media access, misusing the Hillsborough incident, and manipulating the the passions of Liverpool fans to eliminate a rival, threaten his sponsors, sabotage his show, and line his own pockets at the expense of 96 dead Liverpool supporters. Cohen is an A-hole for saying what he said. The Gaffer, on the other hand, is a white collar criminal.
Cohen was wrong about his comments on the number of fans but he is spot on regarding everything else. The venom he is receiving is proof of that. It is interesting how the Gaffer is so hell bent on running with this but refuses to call into the show. Cohen is not going anywhere he made a mistake and has since apologized but he is right about everything else and Liverpool supporters know it which is why they are so angry. Its also interesting to see comments stating that Cohen is poisoning the minds of American football fans, as if we are so ignorant and clueless that we take everything Cohen says as truth. You would be surprised at how much American football followers know about the game and its history including the darker moments like Hillsborough. Aside from firsthand experience we have access to the same information and media that English supporters do. I have as many Guardian, 606, 5live, and other UK based podcasts on my ipod as I do WSD shows. Cohen’s comments regarding the numbers of ticketless fans were reckless, irresponsible, and misinformed but they are overshadowed by the idiotic and cowardly behavior displayed by some of the Liverpool supporters.
just an honest question: why is the taylor report called the ‘interim’ report? was it an interim report but never finalized? or is there an interim report and final report that basically say the same thing and people are just citing both?
thanks
There was an interim report published in ‘89 then a final one published in ‘90. I believe they say basically the same thing. I know there was some controversy around the final one because it left some stuff out. Personally, Ive heard more people cite the interim report then the final one. I dont know why but thats been my experience.
jaime
The interim report was about the causes of hillsborough. The final report was about reccomendations for all seater stadia.
Raiderrich and weiner.
The gaffer posted a link to the entire audio. The listed quotes were from cohen nobody else. You are blaming the rope for someone hanging themselves.
mark
Cohen is not being misunderstood. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about as shown by his whopping about turns. If he feels misunderstood then that is laughable. It’s nobody else’s fault that this ‘broadcaster’ is so spectacularly inarticulate.
I see that cohen blames this site for his supposed threats. That is equivalent to blaming a microphone or anaudio file. It is absurd.
Joe,
Thanks for that. I knew the seating was in one of them but wasnt sure.
As far as Cohen is concerned he has not done any about turns. The only thing he did go back on was the fan numbers. With everything else he has made it very clear what his stance is.
I will not repeat the remarks I posted on MLS Talk but when you listen to the interview with Kartik, and this is one reason Kartik did such a good job is that Steve Cohen had to state that he did not mean to imply that anyone got up that date with a design to harm someone or some group. Cohen had to state that because that was the impression or implication his comments gave. So, he knows he clearly stated something wrong and it was taken the wrong way.
Fair comment of disagreement or disdain can and should be made.
Steven Cohen nor anyone else should not have personal threats made against him or his family of any sort. As a long time member of this site I will state to anyone on behalf of all the fine people who contribute or read this, to those who threaten Steve Cohen to get lost and never come here again. Your not needed or wanted. Chris Harris has made proper comment and that includes calling, e-mailing, or writing the network which Steve Cohen is on to express your valid opinion. Beyond that, it is out of bounds.
I want Steve Cohen to continue with his show and Chris Harris to continue his efforts online. A shouting match is not necessary.
My argument about Steven being misunderstood is that people have tried to suggest that because he is wrong about the Hillsborough disaster he is universally dismissive of ills in the game or only criticizes Liverpool fans and Liverpool FC. That is a caricature that does not accurately reflect the guy or the balance of his comments on a variety of topics, racism, homophobia, violence in the game and in the stands etc. He is not even close to being a “shock jock” as he has been described and he has never been callous about suffering and death in and around the game including Liverpool fans. I find amazing and hypocritical Liverpool fans cry about Hillsborough and make light of the Munich air disaster. They are both tragedies. Of course of different kinds but tragedy and death in and around the game we love should make us all sad. This is not the tribal Man U fan versus, Liverpool versus Chelsea but simply right and wrong.
What Steven is guilty of is being ill informed and also not understanding the dynamics and responsibility of crowd control and authorities. As a football pundit and not a journalist (he gives opinions not facts), this is a forgiveable sin. And you should educate him on the disaster and engage him about it. But I don’t see his comments to be malice. Except he does sound pretty angry about the threats to him and his family.
At the end of the day, EPL talk seems to have used this article to provoke an emotional and irrational response among a group of fans that are easy to wind up about this. Some of the response has been pure demagoguery and at any rate Steven Cohen is not the place where justice will be had for the 96.
My conclusion is that “Gaffer” seeks to undermine Cohen and WSD in order to enter the marketplace. Smart move. If you read the article it makes no attempt to add any nuance to the discussion it seeks to build the anger and yes if you don’t actually write an article about the threats then having wound up the crowd you seem to be okay with it. Gaffer then goes on to support the idea of some kind of economic boycott of WSD. But of course!! That’s what this is all about anyway. Gaffer is trying to figure out a way to build a crescendo of people screaming about Cohen and WSD in order to have sponsors and Sirius pull the show so that maybe Gaffer can step in. It is so blantant and obvious I find it embarrasing that people’s emotions are so easily manipulated. I just hope no one gets hurt, economically or physically.
It will be on you Gaffer. Like I said, MLK jr. said a boycott aimed at punishing rather than achieving justice would have been immoral. A boycott aimed at building your own fame and trying to usurp someone who is in a better position is out and out poisonous. Shame on you Gaffer. And shame on those who have taken the bait- people should be smarter. If WSD disappears because of a few dumb comments by Cohen will we be any closer to justice for the 96? Of course not, but Gaffer will be closer to getting people to listen to his podcast. I will say today- I will NEVER listen to this guy. This is just wrong.
You are right. To sing about the Busby crash then scream for justice for the 96 is a discrace. There has been video in the past on Youtube with Scousers singing “Who’s that dieing on the runway? Who’s that bleeding in the snow?” and they have all conviniently been taken off by Scousers.
I’d like to thank RaiderRich2001 for seeing this for seeing this situation for what it really is. Chris Harris (aka “The Gaffer”) was irresponsible in his decision to push this hot button of so many football fans who are so passionate about this subject. What he never took the time to consider was the damage he would be doing to the very small football community in United States. While his article has led to boycotts and other threats against World Soccer Daily, no consideration was ever given to the small businesses who make their living in the U.S. football industry.
Our country has yet to fully embrace the sport we all love so much, and I am personally thankful that companies like Ruffneck Wear exist. While I believe that Steven Cohen is an pompous egomaniac who probably spouts things that he doesn’t even agree with sometimes, to incite a boycott against businesses that actually help to promote our sport in the U.S. was irresponsible and your actions were very shortsighted. Personally, I believe your blog would be better served if you actually promoted football in America.
If the advertisers were to pull from WSD they would need another advertising outlet that would reach the same numbers of customers in order to sustain their businesses. I have been in the advertising industry for over 10 years and am quite aware of the huge sums of money it costs to advertise on networks such as Fox Soccer Channel or Setanta Sports. I do not know the advertising costs of World Soccer Daily, however I imagine they are not remotely comparable. So my question is, do you have any suggestions on where small football start-up companies should advertise? Perhaps EPL Talk?
I feel that while Mr. Cohen was irresponsible by using his forum to spout incorrect facts, EPL Talk has been equally irresponsible by promoting hate and using their forum to move football backwards in the United States.
Interesting debate this, I wonder how many of those commenting have ever been in a crowd, a real crowd at a football match………….where nobody pushed or squeezed……anyone? I have been to many matched all over the World and have been in situations where I considered myself very lucky to have gotten out unscathed, due to sheer volume of people. Many times my own teams fans were involved in pushing and shoving, those are contributing factors – anyone who has not experienced this has either never been in a football crowd or is a liar.
The fact that Liverpool fans want justice and this drags on to this day IMHO lies with the fact that they want someone else to blame and cannot accept that there may be some amongst them that in some small way contributed to the disaster.
I am not a Liverpool fan, but have supported them on many occasions and was present in Istanbul for the CL final. I have no axe to grind with Liverpool fans, but until they can put this behind them and that involved accepting their part in the terrible tragedy this will go on for ever.
As for the Gaffer asking for an apology before he will go on the WSD show…….well you would need to give yourself some kind of moral high ground, as your position is simply not defendable.
Ultra, I think the point where some pushing or shoving becomes tragedy or 96 dead is about the design of the venue and how authorities handle the crowd on that day. The point is that such things must be expected with crowds and systems in place to try to prevent tragedy. Whether it be at a football match, a concert, a night club or a festival. Crowd control and management is the responsibility of authorities because of the very fact that it is easy for crowd movement to get out of control. The individual push for survival once a crush starts can’t be blamed on anyone. Authorities are at the end of the day responsible. They must create a safe environment and one where a number of things can go wrong. That is for me what Steven does not understand. But it is a fairly nuanced point about crowd control that I doubt he would have thought much about. That’s why I find the Harris article fake hype. Everyone knows people in the crowd crushed and pushed in. If that did not happen there is no tragedy. That to me does not make them responsible. It is still authorities he need to be aware that things like that may always happen in situations with big crowds.
Can’t disagree with anything there Mark
You guys are all lame, get a job and a life.. its an opinion, give it a rest…
Joe, I know what Cohen says about Liverpool fans, nothing doesn’t give The Gaffer the right to incite Liverpool fans against a person and or his livelihood, and it sure as hell doesn’t give him the right to incite Liverpool fans against a competitor in his marketplace. He knew how inflammatory the Hillsborough situation is and he is using the 96 dead fans to enrich himself as surely as Halliburton used the thousands of dead U.S. troops in Iraq to enrich it’s executives.
Excuse me, US *and* British Troops
jaime
He has done an about turn on the following.
1. The stadium. Last week he said the stadium was fine. This week he said it was one of the causes.
2. The numbers of fans without tickets. He said 6 to 8000. To anybody with a brain he has forfeited by respect for his opinion.
3. The root cause. He stated last week that it was thousands of fans without tickets were the root cause. This week he said that because thousands of people were at the game there has to be collective shared responsibility. He hasn’t elaborated on this.
If you value the opinion of someone who was sooooooooo wide of the mark in the first place, it says a lot about you.
rich
Do you know what you sound like? You’re blaming the gaffer for printing what Steven ignoramus cohen wrote, and yet somehow it is the gaffer who is cashing in.
An honest question to you and jaime? Are you mentally retarded?
Seriously.
And the fact that you are resorting to calling people retarded says a lot about you. The only thing Cohen said wrong was the number of fans and he retracted that statement. All you have to do is listen to his whole show and not just the parts you find wrong and youd see you wrong. Youre so far up the Gaffer you cant think for yourself. Wouldnt be surprised if you were him posing as someone else. Go to England, spend one day in Liverpool among the fans, better yet go to an away European fixture with them, and your view would be changed. The only way it wouldnt is if you are already one of them.
Can I ask who named “The Gaffer”, the gaffer…….surely not himself:)
joe,
i do believe that cohen retracted the the 6-8000 line, whether or not he apologized is another story but he did admit the number was incorrect. and i don’t remember him saying that they were the root cause (i could be wrong, i don’t listen to the show everyday), i do recall him saying something along the lines of:
were the police at fault? yes. was the fa at fault? yes, was the stadium at fault? yes. and were some of the fans who were there bear some responsibility? yes
Jaime 04.26.09 at 9:24 pm
“The only thing Cohen said wrong was the number of fans and he retracted that statement.”
And that’s ok then…move on?
The 6-8k ticketless fan argument is central to his entire point – That a significant number of fans with no business being there, were a major cause of the disaster. If he tried to claim that 24 ticketless fans (which is the maximum that the eveidence suggests) were a major cause of this disaster, he’d be laughed out of the room.
If he retracts the 6-8k number, then he has nothing. The logical next step is a complete retraction and an appology.
Instead, the breathtakingly pedantic argument that Cohen and his supporters on here are making is that pushing and shoving was partly to blame and as there is no possible way that didn’t take place, then Liverpool fans share some blame. The problem, of course, is that argument presupposes that human beings don’t panic in a life threatening situation and that crowds all think with one collective brain.
Both suppositions are unbelievably stupid.
Basically , what Steven and several people on here are doing is blaming Liverpool supporters for following police intructions and then panicing when their lives were in danger.
Nice.
Just noticed this gem…
ArthurArseGooner 04.24.09 at 2:58 pm
“you can not call a person that doesnt agree with you, an idiot, because that is an idiotic thing to do.”
I’m not calling you an idiot because I disagree with you Arthur. I am calling you an idiot because your semi-literate, contradictory and rambling postings here demonstrate it.
Jeremy
Well said sir.
Rio
“i do believe that cohen retracted the the 6-8000 line”
Precisely. One week he said that 6-800 fans were the cause of the disaster, the next week he says that even if the numbers are wrong, there has to be “shared blame”.
“were the police at fault? yes. was the fa at fault? yes, was the stadium at fault? yes. and were some of the fans who were there bear some responsibility? yes”
The previous week Cohen had stated that the stadium was not a problem. He specifically referred to the notion that there had not been any problems at Hillsborough before or since. This, in addition to his about turn on the supposed numbers of ticketless fans, shows that he was not in posession of any of the facts when he decided to broadcast his “opinions” on a disaster in which 96 mostly young people were crushed to death.
It shows astonishing arrogance, astonishing stupidity, and he is hugely, profoundly, dramatically wrong.
It really matters that he was so wrong. It really does. It fully undermines his right for any reasonable person to take him seriously. What you are now hearing from him (like the above statement) is a vague attempt to retain some credibility.
Jeremy, I have yet to see anywhere, anyone laying the blame soley on Liverpool fans, they are simply making the point the fans were a contributing factor, albiet this may have been a minor factor.
Nicholas Alts book “The Boys from the Mersey” is a good read, and also provides some frightening insight into the “bunking” in culture amongst Liverpool fans.
KW14Ultra 04.27.09 at 12:06 pm
Jeremy, I have yet to see anywhere, anyone laying the blame soley on Liverpool fans, they are simply making the point the fans were a contributing factor, albiet this may have been a minor factor.
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There has been considerable backtracking to the position of “minor factor”, both here and by Steven Cohen. If you haven’t seen anyone exaggerating the role of Liverpool fans, then we’ve obviously been reading a different thread and listening to a different Steven Cohen.
The point I was making above is that even if, on some incredibly pedantic level, you are right to say that Liverpool fans pushed and shoved and thereby contributed to the disaster, it is not REASONABLE to do so, because the fans were bahaving in exactly the same way most people would in that situation.
Can you imagine the furore if a broadcaster publicly laid partial blame for the death toll at the WTC on 9/11 at the feet of some the victims or survivors? Following the logic of Steven Cohen and others here, there were probably people trying to evacuate those towers that panicked, pushed and shoved and thereby contributed to some deaths.
If Steven said something like that, I think you’ll find that his job would be the least of his worries.
Jeremy 04.27.09 at 10:26 am
Jeremy,
Again you are twisting my words. I said exactly that. Fans can’t really be blames, and that Cohen does not understand crowd control.
So here’s my question. Is it just because its Liverpool? SO when Cohen said in the Ivory Coast some fans were responsible because they were there without tickets and there was pushing but also cited the mistakes by the police were you outraged? Are African lives less valuable?
Is it malice to be uninformed about the dynamics of crowd control and have a talk show on football?
This myopia and sense of persecution amongst Liverpool fans is stunning.
I again ask what is the aim of this “movement”? To punish or humiliate Cohen? To educate him and change his opinion? To end WSD? To drive the small businesses that have grown and work with WSD out of business? For what and to what end?
If the goal is to find justice for the 96 and I have researched those things- then the actions are completely unjustified. If you think Cohen is an idiot and a blow hard or something then turn off your radio or don’t download the podcast. A boycott with malice or for personal gain (Hi Gaffer) is probably more immoral than Cohen’s comments. He is ignorant, those who are boycotting are immoral because it is an act of malice based on you not liking Cohen’s opinions. The justice for the 96 is aimed at those who have libeled the victims. Cohen’s comments are hardly libelous. At best uninformed and insensitive but not libelous. The campaign is also aimed at authorities who victim’s families perceive have avoided justice. Cohen is neither.
Again this is fake outrage or simply ridiculous. And again if it really is about the true issue why no outrage about Cote D’Ivoire. I guess it is only the lives of Liverpool fans that matter. And you wonder where some of the contempt comes from?
You need to read Nicholas Alt’s book “The Boys from the Mersey”.
Thanks Ultra I ordered it. I also recommend “Out of his skin: The John Barnes Phenomena”
Mark
“I said exactly that. Fans can’t really be blames, and that Cohen does not understand crowd control.”
Agreed, thank you.
“Is it just because its Liverpool? SO when Cohen said in the Ivory Coast some fans were responsible because they were there without tickets and there was pushing but also cited the mistakes by the police were you outraged? Are African lives less valuable?”
There has not yet been any equivalent of the Taylor report concerning what happened in the Ivory Coast. Please take note of this next sentence.
I do not know what the causes of the disaster in the Ivory Coast were, therefore I will not state my opinion on them until certain facts are established.
No, it isn’t just because it’s Liverpool, although someone is naturally going to be more closely informed and interested in things when it directly concerns them or their team. If Steven Cohen said that fans without tickets were to blame in the Ivory Coast disaster and is wrong (he has form for this), then I would say that is equally repulsive. of course African lives are no less valuable. What a strange question.
“those who are boycotting are immoral because it is an act of malice based on you not liking Cohen’s opinions”
Are you serious? I subscribe to the fox soccer channel. Steven Cohen appears on that television station. Whilst I do not watch his show (I don’t know why anyone would) I do not want to pay money towards an organisation that employs him. Fox show half of all broadcast Premier League games in the US. Rather than cancel my subscription, I would prefer it if they removed someone who is filler between live broadcasts. If Steven Cohen has a right in a free democracy to have an ill-informed opinion, I have an equal right to lobby and inform his employers and sponsors of what he says.
“I guess it is only the lives of Liverpool fans that matter. And you wonder where some of the contempt comes from?”
What a disgusting thing to say. So because people have campaigned for justice over Hillsborough, the lives of other people don’t matter. Non-sequitur. I hope you have the sense to apologise for saying that. If you don’t, you don’t.
Not apologizing for anything. The point is pushing and shoving in each incident was partially the cause. If there are no fans there is no incident. The incidents are analogous. Cohen’s remarks are the same. I did not say people should not campaign about Hillsborough but just that seeing the incident in myopic terms undermines the idea that it is really about justice or a sense of tribal affiliation to Liverpool. I donated to the campaign myself yesterday. I notice that those who are doing the real work probably can’t be bothered with Cohen. I still find this whole outrage non-sensical.
I also tried to introduce a little theory, perhaps over your head by MLJ Jr. on the morality or lack thereof of boycotts. You did not get it. Too bad. He spent a bunch of time thinking about the tactic, its use and what it is for. You can boycott all you want. I can also call it immoral and malicious using the terms defined by Martin Luther King Jr. It riles me about how those who have never really faced any real social disadvantage etc. can turn any little thing into outrage while those who have faced centuries of it, really have to think long and hard about how to confront it. Cheers to you and I hope find some peace.
Who said the lives in Ivory Coast don’t matter? Talk about twisting somebody’s words.
I am not as aware of the factual details in the Ivory Coast disaster, so I haven’t commented. For all I know, Steven could be right about ticketless fans there. I KNOW he isn’t right when it comes to Hillsborough, because unlike him, I’ve taken time to avail myself of the facts. Unlike him, I don’t comment on things I know absolutely nothing about.
It is revealing that you’ve bought into the whole “persecution complex” thing (yet another convenient stereotype for LFC fans) and assumed that any Liverpool fan who challenges Cohen, falls into this bracket. As I have said to you before Mark, I have no problem blaming Liverpool fans, when they deserve it. Refusing to let Cohen get away with blaming them when they don’t, doesn’t make me myopic.
But you don’t want to hear that do you? You can only justify your anger at me, if you pigeon-hole me with the hysterical people.
What I see, when I read your post, is someone who likes Steven and his programs, and doesn’t want to see them disappear. I actually agree with you. The difference, Mark , is that I am directing my anger at a stubborn and intransigent Mr Cohen, who refuses to end this by retracting his baseless opinions and apologising.
I would say to you Mark, if what Steven did is so innocuous, why doesn’t he simply retract and apologise to spare all his sponsors and listeners the devastating consequenses you describe, of WSD going off the air? Why should the people who are factually in the right, end their boycott campaign, when Steven, who is factually wrong, could bring about the same result by simply apologising?
Yes, there is an imbalance in the outrage between the Hillsborough and Ivory Coast instances and that is wrong. However, there is also an imbalance between the two in the amount of vile rumour and baseless conjecture – still ongoing after 20 years – that continues to be broadcast as truth. Furthermore, there is an imbalance between Steven’s self confessed hatred of Liverpool and his total indifference to Ivory Coast.
You may see that last one as proof that this is just a vendetta, but you’d be wrong. Steven uses undisguised contempt for Liverpool as the rationaisation and justification for saying anything he likes about them, without compunction and regardless of the facts. If this was just about a refereeing decision or something else trivial, nobody would care Mark, but he is blaming innocent people for being complicit in the deaths of 96 men, women and children. That is about as serious an allegation as you can make. I don’t think it is unreasonable at all, to insist that he either prove his claims or retract, and I don’t think a boycott is an imoral way of letting him know how serious we are.
“Not apologizing for anything.”
You implied that those who are upset about this value the lives of Liverpool fans more than those of African people. In fact you didn’t imply it, you asserted it.
“I notice that those who are doing the real work probably can’t be bothered with Cohen.”
Wrong, the HJC is repulsed by this. It might not be a central front, but it matters. Like I said, I live in America, and if I want to watch Premeir League football I have to watch it on Fox, his employer. I’ll be the judge of what I think does or doesn’t matter thanks.
On your MLK point…
“It is also notable that MLK Jr. when asked about the bus boycott stated that he did not see Boycott’s as moral if they were simply a form of punishment.”
This has nothing to do with punishment. It is about what is true. It is about getting a message across. It is about consciousness raising. I do not want Steven Cohen to come any harm. I don’t want him to be threatened, and I condemn anyone who does so. I just don’t want the myth about Liverpool fans, and more importantly football or “soccer” fans to perpetrated on people in my adopted country who like the game the rest of the world does. Steven Cohen continuing to broadcast lies, without considering the facts, is in direct opposition to the truth being known. It matters, it really does.
You people coming on here to just defend Steven Cohen are the equivalent of cult members. Saying the fact that he was wrong about the number of fans without tickets doesn’t change anything. ARE YOU SERIOUS!!! He said 6-8,000 people stormed the gates, causing the disaster. This was wrong, he later admitted it after being called out by this web site. As all the FACTS say, see that word facts, gained by the people who actually investigated the incident and the stadiums own data of people who entered the ground, thousands of ticketless Liverpool fans did not, DID NOT storm the gates. The capacity did not exceed maximum capacity. What happened is that people were forced into the central pens by police and stadium officials, the Taylor Report states this as does the testimony of people who were there that day. The people from the back could not see what was going on in the front, the fact that those in the front were being pushed up against barriers and being crushed. The police down below could see what was happening but ignored the situation. And the police would not, WOULD NOT, allow medical personnel into the stadium to attend to the injured. Countless lives could have been saved if they had been allowed in. But if the stadium workers and police did not direct all the fans into the two central pens, and instead allowed them into the adjacent pens that had space, the incident would not have occured.
Raiderrich, you say this website was being irresponsible by publishing the article, saying they knew it would cause Liverpool fans to attack Steven. STEVEN COHEN IS THE ONE WHO SAID WHAT HE SAID!!! If anyone was irresponsible it was him, for repeatedly attacking Liverpool fans over Hillsboro. My God, you sound like a typical Rush Limbaugh listener, just echo and repeat. And again, I’m an Evertonian, not a Liverpool supporter, and I was deeply offended by his comments and have refused to listen to him since, and ended my podcast. Not just because of this issue, but because of his repeated classless attacks on the people of Liverpool in general.
Not all of us are just saying this because Cohen did. Ive held these views my whole life. Whether or not you agree I could care less. By your lots view, youre pretty much calling the Liverpool fans cattle. Are you saying they couldnt figure out for themsleves that maybe something was going on and not go into the central pen or maybe just not go in period? I know my view of Scousers may not be the best but I at least give them credit for being able to think for themselves. Sorry if it offends you but thats my opinion.
KW14Ultra 04.27.09 at 1:25 pm
You need to read Nicholas Alt’s book “The Boys from the Mersey”.
——————————
Is this the basis of your argument?
A small group of Liverpool fans had a reputation for “bunking in” to football matches, therefore it is reasonable to apportion some blame for Hillsborough on Liverpool fans?
That is feeble beyond belief.
Capacity of Leppings Lane End at Hillsborough Stadium in 1989 = 10,100
Absolute maximum in attendance at that end according to SWFC = 10,124
Even if we assume that a large number of the 10,124 were ticketless (and there is NO evidence for this), 24 over capacity is not what caused the crushing deaths.
The Leppings Lane end was divided into four roughly equal pens. Despite the two side pens not being full, police directed fans into the overcrowded central pens. People at the back could not see that others were being crushed at the front. The Police could see it on CCTV, but did nothing until it was too late.
How do you justify implying that ticketless fans were in any reasonable way responsible?
Jaime,
Your view of “scousers” is colouring your opinion and that is pretty sick.
That is bigotry Jaime, pure and simple. It’s no better than having a sweeping homogenous opinion on “black people” or “asians”.
Try if you can, to set aside your bigotry, and look at the facts. People at the back could not see that others were being crushed at the front. The Police could see it on CCTV, but did nothing until it was too late.
Jaime
“He is completely right that there is shared responsibility for what happened between the Liverpool fans, who showed up with false or no tickets expecting to get in”
“Are you saying they couldnt figure out for themsleves that maybe something was going on and not go into the central pen or maybe just not go in period?”
Why the change of argument? Could it be, I wonder, because you maybe, just maybe, just possibly….
..haven’t the first idea what you are talking about.
Jeremy, I am not sure if you are a Liverpool fan or have attended Liverpool matches around the 80s or not. Please do not think I am saying that Liverpool fans were totally responsible for the terrible events, but the actions of some were a contributing factor – as were the more significant failings of the police, emergency services etc.
I looked on in disbelief in Instabul prior to the CL final, when Liverpool fans swamped a temporary stage, and the announcer tried in vain, the guy was nearly in tears aksing them to leave as the stage was in danger of collapse……….who would have been to blame if it had………..the authorities for organizing entertainment?
KW14Ultra
I’m a Liverpool fan and have followed them for a long time. I too was at the event you mention in Istanbul when the guy was telling those fans to get down off the stage. I remember thinking “get down dick heads”.
If a large enough number of fans behaved like the bunkers, or the people you mention, that could be dangerous. You won’t get any arguments from anyone on that. But that wasn’t the cause of the Hillsborough disaster. Should any fan who sneaks in be prosecuted? Yes. Did that cause Hillsborough? No. Why does it matter? Because the opinion of most of the ill-informed on here seems to be based in a mixture of prejudice, third hand hearsay, unconnected events, and the Sun newspaper.
People would have been much less willing to prosecute the SYP for mere incompetence, were it not for the orchestrated smear campaign conducted with the help of parts of the media. Remember false accusations of pick-pocketing of dead bodies? Remember claims of fans “Urinating on the dead bodies”? Remember claims of fans beating up police officers performing resuscitation? That’s why, when one acknowledges the criminal acts of certain fans, it’s really, really important to note that this wasn’t a cause of the disaster. It’s important that the real causes are know.
157 KW14Ultra 04.27.09 at 3:13 pm
Jeremy, I am not sure if you are a Liverpool fan or have attended Liverpool matches around the 80s or not. Please do not think I am saying that Liverpool fans were totally responsible for the terrible events, but the actions of some were a contributing factor – as were the more significant failings of the police, emergency services etc.
I looked on in disbelief in Instabul prior to the CL final, when Liverpool fans swamped a temporary stage, and the announcer tried in vain, the guy was nearly in tears aksing them to leave as the stage was in danger of collapse……….who would have been to blame if it had………..the authorities for organizing entertainment?
—————————————-
In your hypothetical situation, the Liverpool fans would have been to blame.
Meanwhile back in the very real world of what happened at Hillsborough, as I said before, 24 over cpacity does not cause 96 fatalities in a crowd of over 10,000.
Even if every single one of those 10,124 fans had been ticketless, they would not have been to blame, because the problem was funnelling too many of those 10,124 into the central pens. It doesn’t matter if they were ticketless, legless or homeless.
Can you comprehend that?
I havnt changed my argument. Ive said the same thing this whole time. Taken out of context, like you constantly have, it would seem I have. It is clear that you are extremely biased in your opinion and there is no chance in reasoning with you. So yes, keep quoting your Taylor Report and stick with what youve read on Wikipedia. It is clear you are incapable of thinking for yourself. It would be easier to take you seriously if you were to have left the insults and childness out of it but its clear you cant. When you reduce your arguments to being “havnt the first idea what youre talking about” and calling people mentally retarded it just shows your not to be taken seriously.
Just to be clear as to my stance for everyone else (my view of scousers aside): the fans did contribute to the disaster. Yes the police and everyone else were also at fault, but had the fans not continued to poor in, directed by the police or not, none of this would have happened. And no one can deny that no matter what some report says. Do I feel for the lives lost? Yes, it was a tragic event. But do I think that those same fans could have helped avoid it? Yes. Even if they couldnt see what was going on at the front, the fact that people would be yelling back for them to stop coming in and that there was no mor room to go in, means they should have stopped. Its not like the police were holding guns to there heads forcing them in.
and to Jeremy: My view of scousers, and by that I mean the Liverpool fans although yes I do know that it refers to a person from Liverpool, is formed by what they have done. They are by far the worst fans in europe, a view also shared by UEFA, as attributed to all that there supporters have done to hurt the game. They were a huge reason English clubs were kicked out of europe for those 5 years. And claiming justice for the 96 then singing songs making fun of the Munich disaster just adds to it. Yeah theyre a real great group of people. So it may be bigotry but it is a well deserved, and very much earned, view of Scous fans.
Can you comprehend that the disaster was a result of many factors, the behaviour of fans being a component part.
Joe, I dont disagree with you.
Jeremy the situation was not hypothetical the situation was observed by the person who wrote the response. And of course crowd control is still responsible but some in the crowd who rush stages or gates have some responsibility. Their actions are the spark. The issue is that systems should be in place such that the actions of a few don’t cause loss of life. But your lack of nuance about this borders on the ridiculous. A friend was involved in an incident where 21 were killed in a night club. Of course without the triggering events nothing bad would have happen. But it was authorities who were “responsible” to make sure something could have gone wrong and people would have have lost their lives. A huge tragedy. But those who started the initial fight and the guard in this case who sprayed pepper spray has some responsibility. Is it equivalent to the authorities..of course not. Even those in the crowd who stampeded and did not take them time to survey other safer exits contributed to the disaster. This is obviously the case. Contributing to the problem and being the central or only cause for the blame are very different things. Cohen and others have always said that the authorities and others are to blame but the actions of the fans contributed to the disaster. There is no universe in this kind of incident where that is not true. Does that mean that the ultimate responsibility is on the authorities? Of course! Does that mean people acted purposefully or should have lost their lives? Of course not! It is a tragedy, the night club disaster was a tragedy and so was the Ivory Coast disaster and many others. The idea that behavior of the crowd or even some individuals in the crowd contributed does not make them bad people or evil nor does it diminish the tragedy of the loss of life or let authorities of the hook. This is even recognized in law. For instance you can even be partially to blame but if they other party is also negligent you still have a claim against him or her. Cases are decided in this fashion in tort law everyday and everyone (accept Liverpool fans it seems) that in incidence like these there are many contributing factors. Recognizing them all does not mean that the other factors did not contribute as everyone on the other side of this argument have repeated ad nauseam. I have to conclude that either you are just too emotional to have a reasoned conversation about the issue or lack the intellectual capacity to deal in nuance. I assume it is the former. It is sad because it again leads me to believe that Harris knows about this kind of emotional response and purposefully played upon it for his own gain.
Also, I don’t like injustice. I criticize it attack it and challenge it. I write letters I make phone calls. Cohen is not Dobbs or Imus or a host of others who have said incredibly offensive and harmful things. He is wrong about the facts and has corrected them. The only universe in which you are right is if you assume that his being wrong was out of an attempt to malign the dead or to suggest their loss was not tragedy. He has never said anything that comes close to that but you act as though the comments were intentionally designed to harm Liverpool fans or the families of the 96. That involves a selective or at best negligent reading of the conversation. I find the myopia tragic. I find the attacks on Cohen deeply unfair. I also worry that it will harm the development and marketing of the game in the US.
Note it is always easier to destroy than to create.
Note two of my closest friends are from Liverpool. One is an Evertonian the other a Liverpool fan. I find the discussion of Scoursers and the stereotypes to be akin to racism.
Jaime
I am more than happy to let your last post stand by itself.
Thanks
Mark
Please, “contributing factor” and responsibilty are not the same thing.
“Even those in the crowd who stampeded and did not take them time to survey other safer exits contributed to the disaster. This is obviously the case.”
Presumably this is your night club example. You are right it would be an important contributing factor. It wouldn’t make those people responsible though. One of the main contributing factors to the number of deaths is the inability of a person to breath when being crushed. This doesn’t make those who cannot breath in such circumstances “responsible”. Contributing factor and responsibility are two different things.
“those who started the initial fight and the guard in this case who sprayed pepper spray has some responsibility.”
This is a good analogy – for Heysel. Nobody has ever suggested that any fan who causes violence at a game should not be fully prosecuted by the law and condemned. This is not what happened at Hillsborough though. I really am growing tired of this.
“some in the crowd who rush stages or gates have some responsibility” – yes, but for the millionth time this did not happen at Hillsborough.
“He is wrong about the facts and has corrected them.”
Sigh. He has changed his stance in so far as admitting that all of his original claims are false. And yet somehow he claims his original point is still valid. Is it not possible for you to postulate that he is trying to save face. He can’t be seen by the public to not know anything about what he is talking about. It’s supposed to be his job. How hard is this to see?
This is getting to be very, very sad.
In response to RaiderRich2001’s argument that the Gaffer was being mischievous for commenting on Stephen Cohen’s Hillsborough rant, doing it for his own gain.
First off let me say I am not a regular blog reader, I only came here after listening to WSD and hearing that The Gaffer was a chicken for not going on the show. Trying to get both sides of the story, I googled and ended up here.
I could not believe your argument. Trying to get rid of the competition!
I think the Gaffer would not have been doing his duty to his readers had he not commented on this.
I read nothing in his article that dealt with anything other that how he saw the facts relating to the disaster.
As for trying to sink the WSD ship, I don’t think so. If you look elsewhere on this site, you will find interviews with Cohen and the old host Nick Geber.
Would you interview a supposed competitor if you were trying to kill them off?
They are not competitors at all. I have free will, and make a conscious decision what to listen to and read, and I choose to listen to not only WSD, but many other soccer podcasts. WSD always go on about other good soccer podcasts (606, guardian, chappers etc). Surely by doing that they are driving their listeners away ? Absolutely not. In fact I would argue the opposite, that their numbers have increased as a result of talking about their supposed competition and actually getting pundits from those shows onto theirs.
The Gaffer writes about soccer. WSD is a soccer show. Should the Gaffer not write about WSD?
My personal opinion of Cohen on this issue that whilst I do not agree with him, there is something called free speech, however to me it’s not what he says, it’s the way in which he says it.
You can hear the hatred in his speech. I’ve listened to WSD since pretty much the beginning, when the 2-Gs used to guest host the show so I have been listening to his arguments on this for years, and to me, Cohen has created this monster.
When you give an opinion, that’s fine. However this was a real touchy subject and he really should have been more careful with the facts.
His hatred of Liverpool fans has blinkered his thought processes, and this comes through in his comments. Listeners then respond to those comments, and a few stupid ones abuse and threaten him. His focus is then on these few sad individuals, his dislike of Liverpool fans grows even stronger, the hatred and stereotyping comes across more and then it gets into a vicious cycle.
I like the show, and Cohen is entertaining. It would be boring as hell if he wasn’t opinionated. I hope he never stops. With this particular issue though, he should have (years ago, when Geber tried to get him to shut up) taken a step back and looked at the big picture, realized he was focusing on the wrong thing and changed his tack. Instead he has fueled the fire.
There are no excuses for all the threats he gets and those people who do that must have a screw loose or something and should be locked up, but he himself must take some responsibility for bringing those nuts out of their shells in the same way that he says that Liverpool fans must take some responsibility for what happened.
I feel better now!
Steven Cohen is a football pundit he is not an expert on crowd control, public safety or disaster forensics. He offers opinions many of them (including this one) wrong. He frequently says he is a football pundit and a fan not a football expert. he has journalists, managers, and players on who are “experts” on even the technical aspects of the game. He gives his opinion as a fan and has said this on many occasions. He has even said, “I don’t consider myself to be a “journalist”, I am a fan, the show is entertainment.” He brings on experts to inform. So perhaps he should have someone, not anyone here who is an expert on the subject. But you are holding Steven to a standard he has never held himself out to be. If you don’t like that he has a show that is based in fans with experts contributing and want to hear experts then you don’t want the kind of show of FFF or WSD, period.
So, what is at stake in correcting his opinion? Is there some future harm like for instance he is suggesting AIDS is not caused by HIV or has encouraged violence, hatred or prejudice against a group? He has an opinion you don’t like he has some facts wrong. Engage him. But ignorance is different from malice.
“and to Jeremy: My view of scousers, and by that I mean the Liverpool fans although yes I do know that it refers to a person from Liverpool, is formed by what they have done. They are by far the worst fans in europe, a view also shared by UEFA”
Thanks for neatly illustrating your ignorant bias.
Michel Platini, President of UEFA immediately repudiated the comments of communications director William Gaillard and stated unreservedly that Liverpool fans were not the worst in Europe.
Still, why let the FACTS get in the way of your ignorant bigotry eh?
Mark 04.27.09 at 4:37 pm
So, what is at stake in correcting his opinion? Is there some future harm like for instance he is suggesting AIDS is not caused by HIV or has encouraged violence, hatred or prejudice against a group? He has an opinion you don’t like he has some facts wrong. Engage him. But ignorance is different from malice.
Mark,
I think you only need read through some of the comments on this page to answer your own questions.
If you don’t think encouraging the false accusation of culpablity in 96 deaths is harmful, then I’m not really sure what qualifies. Where do you draw the line at harful/harmless?
He absolutely has encouraged hatred and prejudice against a group – Scousers and Liverpool fans – with not only these recent comments, but many many others over the years and the suspicion of malice is well founded.
“Steven Cohen is a football pundit he is not an expert on crowd control, public safety or disaster forensics”
Amen!
“you are holding Steven to a standard he has never held himself out to be”
This is getting ridiculous. He is a grown man. He broadcast an “opinion”. He gets paid to do this.
“If you don’t like that he has a show that is based in fans with experts contributing”
I look forward to him inviting a representative of the HJC, or an impartial person from the investigation onto his show to explain. I won’t hold my breath.
“So, what is at stake in correcting his opinion? Is there some future harm like for instance he is suggesting AIDS is not caused by HIV or has encouraged violence, hatred or prejudice against a group? He has an opinion you don’t like he has some facts wrong. Engage him. But ignorance is different from malice.”
Look Mark, you clearly like the guy. But why defend him on this. You’ve reduced your own argument to “It’s not his fault he’s stupid”. I can buy that. But why let him on the telly?
By the way Mark, I understand nuance very well thank you. I also understand what is unreasonable and pedantic. I’m not sure you do.
Yes, taken at face value and in isolation, merely turning up at Hillsborough made you part of the problem. Pushing and shoving, regardless of motive (eg – panic or ignorance of the mortal danger others were in), is technically a contributory factor. Does that make it reasonable to lay any blame with those people? Or rather, is it insensitive pedantry of the first order?
More importantly however, Steven Cohen is only now making these “nuanced” arguments in a feeble attempt to save face. Initially he said, six to eight thousand ticketless Liverpool supporters showed up outside Hillsborough and were the root cause of the Hillsborough Disaster. That is not the nuanced argument you describe Mark. It’s flat out wrong.
Now, having admitted that it’s wrong, he still refuses to apologise and falls back on nuanced pedantry to save face.
Hey Gaffer,
Just go on his show and ask for an apology. Suck it up, man. All this back and forth is lame.
People died at Ibrox ,too. Twice, they got over it.
C’mon, you Liverpool fans! You’re at fault too and there’s nothing wrong with admitting it. It was a cluster f**k of major proportions.
ELAC,
I will not be willing to go on World Soccer Daily until after Cohen admits he was wrong, retracts his statements and makes an apology to his listeners and Liverpool supporters. I know. I sound like a broken record, but I’m not budging.
Cheers,
The Gaffer
One more thing Mark. When deciding whether Steven’s intentions were malicious or just ignorant, did you ever think to ask Steven where he got the 6-8k number from?
I’ve searched high and low for the source of this claim, and can’t find a thing.
I suspect the source may be Mr Cohen himself. He made it up.
Now ask yourself… Does someone who is just making an “innocent mistake”, invent statistics to bolster his argument?
There’s nothing innocent about that at all.
Jamie, you wrote, “Are you saying they couldnt figure out for themsleves that maybe something was going on and not go into the central pen or maybe just not go in period?”
I am sorry mate but, that sentence alone leads me to believe you know absolutely nothing about the Hillsborough disaster outside of the fact that 96 people died at a stadium named Hillsborough.
I mean, are you serious?
Do you even know the set-up of the place?
Have you ever been in a large crowd in a confined space?
Are you under the misguided impression that in 1989 everybody had their own CCTV feed and could easily suss out what was going on inside the ground before they even attempted to enter it?
First time coming on this blog. I’ve checked this blog out following dear, poor Steven’s distress at the original Post by “Gaffer”. I wish to echo what Kevin in 167 has said. I often thought “as you reap so you shall sow”. His plain nastiness when it comes to Liverpool, the city, it’s citizens and specifically Liverpool supporters has been constant in my experience. It’s not at all a surprise that the stored and stoked venom will be spewed out in the ignorant manner which it came out.
I don’t see what the big problem here is. As I see it what the Hillsboro’ support groups and ordinary (non-Liverpool fans) citizens want is CLARITY. The report is there, condensed for anyone who wishes to inform themselves. What they don’t want and need are more glib generalisations, lies and mistruths. Steven Cohen has NOT retracted his statements, he has NOT apologised to the people he has slandered and hurt. He clouds every semi-throw away retraction with his “shared responsibility” mantra.
In fairness to the other lad, Kenny, who co-hosts the show, he has called it as it is.
I say this in ignorance of today’s WSD show.
Talking about the worst fans in Europe? Have you seen Italian football lately? Have you been to game in Italy? I have, several times and you take your life in your hands going to vitually every ground.
Try going to a game in Romania, Croatia, Poland or Holland and I’ll think you’ll quickly change your opinions on who exactly are the worst fans in Europe.
One thing I forgot to say with regards to “Free Speech”, and “God Bless America” etc.. another recent Cohen Mantra ..
Add your “Free Speech” to ignorance and spite and what do you get ? …..
PAUL BEESTALL:
I have gone to a match in Romania. Great time. Lots of sunflower seeds. No sweat.
Gaffer,
Your “broken record” response to calls for going on WSD sound like someone who won’t fight for what he believes in. Will only talk when the other has conceded defeat, and is therefore unwilling to discuss or debate the topic to try and change the other’s mind.
Your stubbornness on this topic rivals Cohen’s on the topic of Hillsborough.
The similarity between the two of you is uncanny.
Jaime,
My final thoughts. You continually accuse of those who make obvious points about crowd behavior as being pedantic. It is funny because it is just the opposite. We are arguing that while probably wrong the difference between Steven’s argument and the settled wisdom rests upon one claim that Steven has already retracted. Jaime and others then want to take that small difference and argue that Steven’s livelihood, WSD etc. ought to disappear because of relatively small semantic differences.
On the show, it is entertainment as is football. I sometimes like what Steven says I often disagree. I have appreciated his stances against racism, and homophobia etc. He has said more open and forthright things about that than almost any broadcaster on the radio in the US (note conservative hate talk radio emerged out of sports talks!). I appreciate that. The show is entertainment Steven is an entertainer. He is not a journalist. Also what makes the show entertaining is he has an opinion that you can agree or disagree with. That’s the whole point. Beyond that of the thousands of hours of WSD those statements are snippets (not out of context) but the show really isn’t about the Hillsborough disaster. In fact I think Steven has rightly rejected turning the show into a debate on the topic. We all agree violence in football is horrible and Hillsborough was a huge tragedy. We all agree that any loss of life is too much and that authorities and everyone involved in the game (including fans) need to do what they can to prevent it. Maybe that’s pedantic, I call it common sense. And hell if everyone I thought was ill informed, wrong or idiotic was off the tele or the radio we would be without Fox News, Rush Limbaugh Lew Dobbs and a host of others. I am sure during my occasional appearances on television and radio some think the same of me. Most of what is said on the “news” by journalists is wrong or misleading. I can’t be bothered by a fan opinion show.
Another point is the co-owner of the show Nick Geeber is a Liverpool fan. Dave from Seattle is obviously from Liverpool. They really even tried to give Tony from New Mexico his space until his own anger and sense of persecution just made it impossible. It is this kind of myopia and sense of self-persecution that is just maddening.
Gladly it seems as if most sponsors and certainly XM (who just picked up the show) are not listening. I also think Gaffer’s demands are ridiculous. Plus has anyone thought about how Cohen may have dug in his heels because of the disgusting response he received. How would you feel if you and your family including children were threatened with bodily harm? What about your livelihood? I think Steven should let it die. He causes more problems and uses more language that tosses more fuel on the fire (and I have written to him as much). He is angry. But at the end of the day can you blame him? That’s the problem with myopia. You can only see what’s in your immediate vicinity. The opportunity for a reasonable dialogue probably ended with the first death threats.
Beyond that, those of us who don’t have much of a stake in it, when we make points of basic fact are attacked. It is just nuts. It is tragic those people died. I am also happy no such incident has happened again in England. Sadly around the world there are too many tragedies waiting to happen. We just had one. I saw one up close and personal in a night club where equally the victims were slandered (”what were single mom’s doing at a night club on a friday night”). It was horrible. People get stupid around these things and really don’t understand on all sides.
I honestly apologize if any victim thinks I have been callous about their suffering, nothing is farther from the truth. As someone who has dedicated their life to social change and justice I also find the response here to be hopeless and pretty backward. That’s your right. But you are making more enemies than friends. Boycott’s are not to defeat an enemy but to end an injustice. I don’t see it here.
“Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.”
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Sean Atkinson,
“Have you ever been in a large crowd in a confined space?
Are you under the misguided impression that in 1989 everybody had their own CCTV feed and could easily suss out what was going on inside the ground before they even attempted to enter it?”
I personally haven’t tried to enter a place when it was so crowded that I had to push and shove my way into it. I was not at Hillsborough and am not familiar with it’s set up, but it seems to me that the idea of “judging by the crowd in front of me, there’s no room for me there” should work in this case. I’m not trying to sound sarcastic and reading this back, I see that it could read that way. I’m just genuinely curious why that sentimentality couldn’t have helped save lives.
The police didn’t trample anyone to death, the scousers did. Pass the blame all you wan’t thats what guilty people do…
Steven,
you are a disgrace to broadcasting. You are ill informed in the extreme and clearly a bigot of the first order. Take a minute out from your money making schedule to check your facts and hopefully you will see what I mean.
I dont know if you are married or have children of your own but i hope you are never in my shoes…..not only losing the two most precious things in the world but having to put up with self opinionated “celebrities” spitting out tripe on a subject they cannot even be bothered to research properly….
just look at the many replies to your outburst to see what I mean…..
In my address at the anniversary service I talked about fans responsibilities, including respect for other teams tragedies ( Munich, Bradford etc etc) and I abore any behaviour that fails to do that. I also talked about use of the internet to throw abuse at fellow fans and or their teams marking their losses in a respectful way……. at the end of the day it could have been anyone of our teams involved….. You are guilty of both of these contempts and really are a disgrace to Chelsea as well as jounalism and/or broadcasting and I suppose the human race. It may be a deliberate tactic to boost ratings or your profile but sadly it does you no credit…. stop ranting and do your job properly….. with your fat salary comes responsibility…. especially to the new generation of football supporters who pay your wages… You claim to be a fan act like one.
Trevor, this is kind of moving away from the central issue being discussed, but may help in the understanding of those not directly affected by the disaster. Can you help those of us not directly involved with the Justice for the 96 campaign to understand what exactly the ultimate aim of the campaign is, have any tangible goals been established, and is there a strategy to achieve these goals? It seems many “assume” that the aim is to find and entity or an individual to blame – but it may be to ensure that the terrible events of that day do not happen again, we simply don’t know.
his facts may be off, but even kenny spoke about the Ibrox disaster, and how ranger fans had to move on. Liverpool fans waiting on an apology for Hillsborough aren’t going to receive an honest one from the police or the FA, and they’re most likely not going to receive one from Cohen. Death threats and outrage both real and fabricated aren’t going to clear things up for anyone, neither is the scab picking for another 20 years. it’s time to move on.
Shaft FC,
“I personally haven’t tried to enter a place when it was so crowded that I had to push and shove my way into it. I was not at Hillsborough and am not familiar with it’s set up, but it seems to me that the idea of “judging by the crowd in front of me, there’s no room for me there” should work in this case. I’m not trying to sound sarcastic and reading this back, I see that it could read that way. I’m just genuinely curious why that sentimentality couldn’t have helped save lives.”
I get your point, however, there are a number of problems with it.
Firstly, this is not a situation where people were trying to buy tickets the day of the match at the front gates, the super majority of people had tickets. Combine that with the fact that stadiums were not in the business of over-selling tickets, why would you leave the ground after having travelled via car, bus, or train to get to the match? As has been stated by many, the problem was not that there was not enough room, people were just directed to the wrong place.
Secondly, the reason why there was such a large crowd outside the ground is due to the fact that there were traffic delays on the M62 thanks to unannounced road work. Fans were told not to show up at Hillsborough until 15 minutes before the match. That, in concert with the construction on the M62 means many fans got to the ground right at kick-off. Knowing that construction had been taking place on the M62 thanks to the unannounced road work, one would not be surprised by the large amount of spectators outside of the ground.
Thirdly, if you take a look at this: http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/pdfs/sport/hillsborough.pdf , You will notice that, once a person got into the ground, there was no way a fan could tell which areas were crowded, and which areas were not until they actually got to them. The most logical thing to do for a fan, unless otherwise told so would be to go straight down the tunnel in front of them since the game had already started and no one directed them elsewhere. As you can see in the link I posted, that tunnel is rather long so there was no way they could have known before getting there.
As you can also see from that link I posted, things got so compact due to this combined with the rush to get into the ground because the game had already started people literally climbed and/or were lifted up to opper terraces in order to escape the crush. Moreover, people were also forced to climb over the front fence in order to escape the crush by going on the pitch. Surely, people would not have had to resort to those sort of desperate measures if they had an inkling of what was going on inside pens three and four.
davey hicks,
The type of people who send death threats are not the type of people the majority of Liverpool supporters want to be associated with. Every club has a small segment of people that are nothing short of absolute muppets.
Moreover, Liverpool can moving on does not necessarily mean that one has to let injustices go unpunished. The two are not mutually exclusive. One can go one with their life while still fighting for what they believe is right. It is not as if people part of the Hillsborough Justice Campain have been walking around England shouting “justice for the 96!” every second of every day for the past twenty years.
sean,
I agree with you on the handfuls of muppets, as a Chelsea supporter I would hate to be lumped in with the C18/BNP wankers that ran amok in the 70s and 80s.
On justice for the 96, I think the only way it could be brought about is making sure it never happens again. I don’t honestly believe the Old Bill, or the FA could honestly offer an honest apology at this point.
Gaffer,
Cohen has already spread his misinformation on Fox Football Fone In. It was two or three years ago, when Nick Geber (a Liverpool supporter) was still his co-host. He said the same things and Geber wanted to kill him. On the next week’s show, the first thing Cohen did was apologize for his comments. I just can’t believe he’s doing it again.
Shaft FC,
“I personally haven’t tried to enter a place when it was so crowded that I had to push and shove my way into it. I was not at Hillsborough and am not familiar with it’s set up, but it seems to me that the idea of “judging by the crowd in front of me, there’s no room for me there” should work in this case. I’m not trying to sound sarcastic and reading this back, I see that it could read that way. I’m just genuinely curious why that sentimentality couldn’t have helped save lives.”
I appreciate your genuine willingness and open mindedness on this, and would like to address your question since I am sure it is ultimately a conclusion that many people arrive at. I don’t mean this to sound condescending or patronising but wondered if you were an American fan? It’s important because if you have ever stood on busy terracing at a football match it would really help you to understand. Perhaps the most universal analogy would be a very busy rock concert. If you can picture throngs of people ebbing and flowing, you will sort of get the idea. This was universally the case at football terracing the world over. I recommend the original version of the film Fever Pitch. There is one scene where the character played by Colin Firth takes his girlfriend to stand on the North Bank at Arsenal. This is a great example of what the “norm” was. It took a terrible disaster to make people realise how dangerous things had been all along.
The Taylor report, which is available to download as a pdf, is extraordinarily thorough. Not only is it an authoritative, independent account of what happened, it is accessible and quite readable, if in parts, truly upsetting. Anyone who says they doubt the Taylor report clearly hasn’t read it.
The Taylor report makes reference to the above point I was making, and in context will help give you the answer to your question. Here are some key excerpts in relation to your specific point.
Talyor Report Paragraph 175
“Over the years, spectators have come to accept conditions which are often very uncomfortable and not infrequently downright dangerous. They are subjected to buffering and squeezing to get in and out of the terraces. They are packed tightly and exposed to surging and swaying during the match. They put up with these conditions because they are devoted to the game and there is little they can do about them. They believe the discomfort will pass and nothing untoward will happen. Usually that is the case and they are reassured by it…The practice (of football clubs) has been to pack them in on the assumption that if they are prepared to put up with it the conditions must be tolerable.”
Paragraph 180
“The tendency has been to allow the pens to fill until the fans complain or show signs of discomfort. If the density at the front appeared less than at the back, the Tannoy would announce fans to move forward to make room for more. The evidence before the enquiry..shows there have been frequent occasions when the packing on terraces, not only at Hillsborough, has caused discomfort and sometimes, for brief periods, fear. Usually the surge recedes, the sway returns, the pressure eases and the incident passes unrecorded.”
Hopefully this will give you an idea of what things were generally like. But obviously things were different at Hillsborough. Remember that the leppings lane end was divided into pens, and there was overcrowding outside the ground to begin with. It’s important to note that the police were trying to get people into the ground just as much as people were trying to get in. This is not an attack on those police officers on the ground. They did not know there was crush any more than the fans did. This was the scene outside the stadium at the entrance to the leppings lane stand.
Paragraph 62
“Up to this time (2.30 pm), despite the large mass outside the turnstiles and the numbers still approaching, there was still no panic in the crowd; no perception of crisis by the police. In the control room Mr Murray, who could see Leppings lane on the video, advised Chief Superintendent Duckenfield that they would get everyone in by 3.00 pm. Mr Duckenfield reaffirmed the policy about a delayed kickoff. It would be ordered only if there was some major external factor such as fog on the Pennines or delay on the motorway, not if spectators merely turned up late in large numbers….(from paragraph 192) Whether those who arrived late was much debated. The ticket simply required it’s holder to take up his position 15 minutes before kick off.”
Paragraph 197
“Superintendent Marshall and other officers criticised the crowd as uncooperative because police exhortations to stop pushing and to ease back were not heeded. How could they be? In that crush most people had no control over their movements at all. Two incidents with police horses illustrate the point…there were eyewitness accounts of a horse being physically lifted off it’s feet by the crowd. That occurred, as the police accepted, without malice or intent but as an involuntary consequence of crowd pressure which those by the horse’s flanks could not resist any more than the horse itself.”
Paragraph 64
“Meanwhile the crowd grew at the leppings lane entrance. As more arrived at the back the crush grew worse. Entry to the turnstiles became more difficult…Arrivals at the back exceeded deliveries through the turnstiles, so the build up increased. The mounted officers were surrounded by a dense mass of people and became ineffective.”
Paragraph 66
“It was clear the crowd could not pass through the turnstiles by 3.00pm. Police constable Buxton radioed from the Landrover to control asking that kickoff be postponed. The suggestion was acknowledged but rejected.”
Paragraph 231
“Planning apart, it should have been clear in the control room where there was a view of the pens and of the crowd at the turnstiles that the tunnel had to be closed. If orders has been given to that effect when gate C was opened the fans could have been directed to the empty areas of the wings and this disaster could still have been avoided. Failure to give that order was blunder of the first magnitude.”
For those that could get inside the stadium, read the following
Paragraph 44
“Those entering through turnstiles A to G had three options once inside the ground. They could by moving to the right go round the south end of the west stand and gain entry into pens 1 and 2. They could go through the gap in the dividing wall towards the concourse behind turnstiles 11 to 16 and then round the north end of the west stand into pens 6 and 7. However there were no conspicuous signs inviting them to take either of those courses. The obvious way was straight ahead of the turnstiles where a tunnel under the middle of the west stand gave access to pens 3 and 4. Above the entrance in large letters was the word “Standing” and a large letter B. Thus B ticket holders were drawn towards the tunnel.”
Paragraph 171
“At Cup semi finals.. all the pens were opened from the start and the policy was to let fans “find their own level”. This phrase was repeated again and again by police officers at the inquiry. What it meant was that no specific direction was given to fans entering through the turnstiles. They were free to go wherever they wished on the terraces. If they became uncomfortable or wished for any other reason to move their position, then theoretically they could move elsewhere. In this was it was hoped that the fans on the terraces would level themselves out and that the distribution would be achieved without police intervention. On these occasions the gates at the top of the radial fences were locked in the open position. It was sought to argue, therefore, that there was freedom of movement from one pen to another enabling fans to “find their level”.”
Paragraph 172
“This argument was bad both in theory and in practice, In theory, the whole object of radial fences had been to achieve even distribution by directing fans into desired positions. To say then that they could move freely from one pen to another would defeat the object and enable fans to go from a less popular to a more popular area without inhibition. In practice this did not happen because the position and size of the gates was such that once a substantial number of spectators were in, the gates were unnoticeable and inaccessible especially to those towards the front who might have most need of them”.
Paragraph 183
“…Whilst in theory the police would intervene if a pen became “full”, in practice they permitted the test of fullness to be what the fans would tolerate”.
Paragraph 184
“By 2.52 pm when gate C was opened, pens 3 and 4 were over-full even by this test. Many were uncomfortable. To allow any more into those pens was likely to cause injuries; to allow in a large stream was courting disaster.”
Paragraph 244
“..pens 3 and 4 were becoming more and more crowded…fans were showing and signalling distress. none of this was ween or recognised in the control room”.
Paragraph 250
“Mr Motson, the BBC commentator, recognised and said that the trouble seemed to be overcrowding and not misbehaviour.”
Paragraph 255
“Many fans who escaped onto the pitch alive were in a state of collapse or close to it. Most of those who retained their strength strove magnificently to assist the victims. They helped pull them clear; they helped with first aid; they helped carry the improvised stretchers.”
Paragraph 257
“Before this inquiry began, there were stories reported in the press, and said to have emanated from police officers present at the match, of “mass drunkenness”. It was said that drunken fans urinated on the police while they were pulling the dead and injured out, thet others had even urinated on the bodies of the dead and stolen their belongings. Not a single witness was called before the inquiry to support any of those allegations though every opportunity was aforded for any of the represented parties to have any witness called whom they wished. Those who made ‘the allegations’ would have done better to hold their peace.”
Paragraph 279
“In all some 65 police officers gave oral evidence at the inquiry, Sadly I must report that for the most part teh quality of their evidence was in inverse proportion to their rank.”
Paragraph 280
“With some notable exceptions, the senior police officers in command were defensive and evasive witnesses.”
Paragraph 283
“Most surprisingly he (Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield) gave Mr Kelly and others reason to think there had been an inrush due to Liverpool fans forcing open a gate. This was not only untruthful, it set off a widely reported allegation against the supporters which caused grave offence and distress.”
Paragraph 285
“It is a matter of regret that at the hearing, and in their submissions, The SYP were not prepared to concede they were in any respect at fault in what had occurred”.
I would strongly advise anyone who cares about the sport of football to read the Taylor report. Unquestionably, some fans wee guilty of despicable behaviour before during and after this incident, and not just Liverpool fans. To suggest however, that the behaviour of Liverpool fans was the cause of this disaster is flat out wrong.
Joe 04.28.09 at 3:39 pm
There is nothing here that is inconsistent with what I have said.
The only way Steven is going to apogize is if sponsers get on him to do so, even if he does he wont mean a word of it. He will only do so to appease his sponsers, I dont know why you want one when it wont be genuine and he will still think and at some point say this again, its not worth it.
Thanks all for the clarification. I would like to say as well, that I appreciate the kind way in which both Sean A and Joe stated their points. I think we can all understand eachother better in this way.
You know, I had thought that the atmosphere would be very “rock concert-like”, having been to a few, I can see how easily things could have turned for the worse, especially when fans are anxious to see a game in which they’d missed kick-off. Would the tunnel not have been crowded as well, as fans are making their way into the pens? In a way, it doesn’t matter. The important thing is 96 people lost their lives going to see a game they love. It’s tragic that this had to happen for changes to be made to make people safer.
Thanks again for your assistance guys, I appreciate it.
Hey Joe,
I am glad you brought up the fact that you figured Shaft FC was American (or at least from North America), I was going to bring up the same thing, but, I thought my response was getting a little long.
It is a great point because, as far as I know, no major stadiums in America (or Canada, where I live), have standing room areas which might make it a little hard for fans who regularly attend sporting events to truly grasp. Your rock concert example was good though, but, even rock concerts do not even get as packed as some terraces back in the day did.
on his point about his sponser well here is a letter a lfc fan got and posted it on lfc.tv
Dear Paul
Thank you for your email and for bringing Steven Cohen’s comments on World Soccer Daily to our attention. Needless to say we were shocked and upset at what he said. We cannot condone such flagrant disregard of the facts of one of the UK’s biggest football tragedies and, as a result, we have now severed our relationship with the radio station.
Unfortunately our latest issue was printed last week, too late to remove advertising for the show from the magazine, but I assure you that it will not feature in future.
FourFourTwo has always been a magazine for football fans written by football fans and we pride ourselves on the accuracy of our reporting. As such, I would draw your attention to a blog posted on FourFourTwo.com last week to mark the 20th anniversary of Hillsborough. Hopefully this will illustrate our own views on the subject.
http://fourfourtwo.com/blogs/fourfou…n-s-story.aspx
Yours sincerely,
Ollie
see even they know the facts and dont want anything to do with this fool
Mark,
I think your post # 182 was for me, not Jaime. Otherwise it makes no sense.
Let me deal with your “final thoughts” (I wouldn’t bet on it) one at a time.
“My final thoughts. You continually accuse of those who make obvious points about crowd behavior as being pedantic. It is funny because it is just the opposite. We are arguing that while probably wrong the difference between Steven’s argument and the settled wisdom rests upon one claim that Steven has already retracted. Jaime and others then want to take that small difference and argue that Steven’s livelihood, WSD etc. ought to disappear because of relatively small semantic differences.”
I accuse those who insist on pointing out the obvious of being insensitive pedants, because that’s what they are. Knowing, and in your case, admitting, that it is unfair to draw a parallel between a “contributing factor” and “shared responsibility”, yet insisting on sticking to your guns is pedantic. No matter how careful you are to try and separate the two, most casual observers will connect them. Furthermore, despite retracting the claim that is the foundation of his argument, and falling back on this “contributing factor” pedantry, Steven still insists that Liverpool fans have “shared responsibility”, not just that they contributed. The following is an extract from an email I received from Steven AFTER he had admitted that the ticketless fans claim was wrong…
“My thinking is that between the FA, Hillsbrough, the police and fans there is shared responsibility in this tragic event but you can’t even get Liverpool fans to consider that either.
Shared responsibility, its just not the English way to go.”
This is not a small difference Mark. There is an enormous and important difference between “contributing factor” and “shared responsibility”. Take for example, Flight 93 on September 11th 2001. According to Steven’s logic, by wrestling with the hijackers in the cockpit of that 757, the passengers were a “contributing factor” in why it crashed. Now, try and make that argument in a radio broadcast, concluding that the passengers have “shared responsibility” and throw in some invented evidence to support your argument and let’s see how many polite and non threatening emails you get.
Note – In anticipation of the morons who will think I’m drawing a parallel between 9/11 and Hillsborough – I’m quite clearly not. I’m merely illustrating the speciousness of the “contributing factor” / “shared responsibility” argument.
“On the show, it is entertainment as is football. I sometimes like what Steven says I often disagree. I have appreciated his stances against racism, and homophobia etc. He has said more open and forthright things about that than almost any broadcaster on the radio in the US (note conservative hate talk radio emerged out of sports talks!). I appreciate that. The show is entertainment Steven is an entertainer. He is not a journalist. Also what makes the show entertaining is he has an opinion that you can agree or disagree with. That’s the whole point.”
Nice to hear that you find Steven’s views on Hillsborough to be entertaining Mark. I don’t.
Steven can be right 99% of the time Mark, it does not therefore follow that he doesn’t have to apologize for the 1% when he’s wrong and seriously offends a large chunk of his listeners. The fact that you like him and his show, does not mitigate his recent comments and behaviour.
But this boycott isn’t just about being offended Mark. It’s about clearing up a common and very damaging misconception, which you neatly illustrate with this next sentence…
“We all agree violence in football is horrible and Hillsborough was a huge tragedy.”
In a casual and probably unintentional way, you are linking “violence in football”, which is inextricably linked to hooliganism, with Hillsborough. The two are NOT linked and never should be. That is what Steven is doing too, when you put his comments in the context of his long standing contempt for Liverpool fans. In other email exchanges, Steven has unambiguously claimed that because Liverpool fans caused the deaths at Heysel, then they must have been to blame at Hillsborough too. This has to stop Mark, even if that means making an example of an otherwise entertaining Steven Cohen.
“Gladly it seems as if most sponsors and certainly XM (who just picked up the show) are not listening.”
Heineken, Setanta, FourFourTwo magazine and Steve Nicol of New England Revolution have listened Mark, and LFC fan clubs across America are keeping the pressure on others.
We’ll see.
“Boycott’s are not to defeat an enemy but to end an injustice. I don’t see it here.”
As I’ve explained above, the injustice is in the continuing smearing of the innocent with conjecture and innuendo. If you can’t see that, then that’s your own problem.
“Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.”
Martin Luther King, Jr.
I don’t hate Steven Cohen, Mark. Before this whole incident I was a fan despite his irritating anti-Liverpool bias. However, I intend to keep shining that light on Steven’s lies, whether you like it or not.
Fado’s in Austin cancelled their live WSD remote due to security issues and repeated threats against the establishment, property, and staff.
Congratulations, Gaffer, your campaign of corporate-sponsored violence against a rival is paying off. And stop repeating the lies about how you disapprove of this. EPLTalk is the Halliburton of the soccer world. WSD is a rival whether you want to admit it or not. And you’re using the 96 to line your pockets whether you want to admit it or not. Nothing Steven Cohen has said justifies your campaign of violence.
And congratulations to Kate, Joe, Shakira, Jeremy, and all the other Liverpool supporters. You are tools of an unscrupulous corporation that makes Bernie Madoff look like . I thought Merseysiders were supposed to be working-class blokes that stood up to the man. Disappointing. You let your feelings about Hillsborough overshadow the fact that a corporate entity is using the dead you claim to honor for it’s own personal gain by eliminating a rival entity, just like a certain former president used the 9/11 attack to torture and make a profit for Halliburton. You dishonor the 96 when you scream “Justice!” in support of a corrupt company.
And if you can’t see what EPLTalk’s ethics are, then you are blinded by fan loyalty.
One More Thing: look up the “Megan Meier Cyberbullying Prevention Act” or “H.R.1966″, Gaffer. This applies to you. (I’d publish a link but then being the douche you are, you’d delete it for “spam” which in your world is posts that disagree with your agenda)
And Jeremy
“Heineken, Setanta, FourFourTwo magazine and Steve Nicol of New England Revolution have listened Mark, and LFC fan clubs across America are keeping the pressure on others.”
Really, they managed to threaten that many people? Come on, don’t confuse threats of violence with a boycott. And don’t confuse righteous anger with corporate sabotage, which all LFC fans who have read or dissemanated the article posted here, wrote letters to FourFourTwo, and threatened the staff at the Austin Fado’s, are now an accomplice to.
You may not agree with Steven. Hell, I don’t because of his stance on MLS. The Hillsborough comments were equally wrong. However, nothing, not even Cohen’s words, justify any malice-filled or hate-filled acts.
RaiderRich2001 how are we tools of the gaffer sorry but we would have found out without gaffer since the first time steven mentioned hillsbrough and he was forced to say sorry since that time some lfc fans have kept track on his show and don’t you think there are lfc fans in the usa who would have told the uk fans about this
for liverpool fans this has nothing to do with a fight between shows that does not even exist this is a fight to clear the names of wrongfully accused people why does steven think he knows better than everyone else better than the guy who lead the inquiry better than most of the press better than most fans of other clubs and better than the south Yorkshire police themselves who have recently came out and said they were fully to blame so tell me what makes me know better wheres the proof truth is he has none it does not exist
and on this thing about lfc should take half the blame ok what for
1 the police opening gate c then lying about saying the fans forced it open
2 the police not shutting the tunnel right in front of that gate when they knew the 2 pens were full you can see in pics that the side pens were nearly empty
sorry but the police have a duty of care its there job not the fans jobs
I have to say that any Liverpool fan who disagrees with what Mr. Cohen has every right. I believe that I disagree with Mr. Cohen on his stance about Hilssborough.
But any Liverpool fan who have threantened Mr. Cohen and his family with death or kidnapping is not only a depolorable human being, but dishonours the 96 that tragically lost their lives in HIllsborough. If you disagree with someone then confront them in the proper way. Try to talk to them, inform them, and if you can’t get through then ignore them. Make sure that the correct message about HIllsborough is getting as wide spread dissemination as possible. You not only undermine your position on Hillsborough when you threaten people but you are feeding into the negative stereotype of a Liverpool supporter.
Go on WSD and argue your point, tell people where they can go to get the information they need to get an informed opinion about Hillsborough, and write as many articles, blog posts and emails as you can to carry the fight for Justice for the 96.
Oh and people are allowed to have differing opinions than you. They are allowed to express those opinions even if they are wrong, illinformed or simply ignorant. That’s life my friends. You are allowed to argue your points as well and try to inform. But you threaten a man and his family then you forfeit your right to claim the higher moral ground.
Kate, Liverpool fans did not boycott, excuse me, threaten WSD’s advertisers until after The Gaffer posted the article. Ergo, you are accomplices to to The Gaffer’s corporate sabotage of WSD and corporate tools. But what do you expect from fans of a club who is half-owned by a hedge fund manager from Dallas?
“for liverpool fans this has nothing to do with a fight between shows that does not even exist”
And that’s the problem with you, It’s all “Liverpool, Liverpool, Liverpool” with you and so much that you can’t see the greater crime being perpetrated right in front of your very eyes
Are you The Gaffer’s press agent or girlfriend? Or are you so blinded by Steven Gerrard’s “good looks” that you can’t see the truth?
WSD and EPL Talk are competitors for the same ad dollars. You of all people should know the passion the mention of Hillsborough causes in Liverpool fans, and The Gaffer is twisting your passion for his end to eliminate a rival. How can you be so blind as to not see what’s going on? I suppose you think it’s OK that British and American troops died because Bush and Blair decided to risk lives in Iraq for the profits of Halliburton also.
You disrespect the 96 you claim to cherish by continuing to threaten sponsors on behalf of the The Gaffer, even though you think you’re doing it for Liverpool.
Do you know how many U.S.-produced soccer radio phone-ins we have here? ONE! So you are attempting to stunt the growth of soccer in America because you wanna go terrorist on the ONE, ONE radio soccer show we have simply because a rival soccer media person chooses to tear him down and use you to do it.
Not only that, you hurt soccer’s image with the non-soccer media in America who look at stuff like the threats you have leveled against Fado’s and say, “typical soccer fan.” You are not only representing Liverpool in their eyes, you are representing every single soccer fan on Earth when you’re a soccer fan in this country and your behavior reflects on all of us. You have no idea how far this sport still has to go to be credible, and you and your Liverpudlian friends don’t seem to care.
What about Cohen’s partner Kenny Hassan, whom you have conveniently left out of this discussion? He, on the same show, has challenged Cohen’s views on Hillsborough every single time, and you’re stabbing him in the back by taking away his livelihood. He identifies with you because his dad was almost involved with a similar disaster at Ibrox. Hassan, of course, is a Rangers fan and unlike Cohen doesn’t have a personal bias in this matter. But neither you nor The Gaffer, nor any Liverpool fans seem to care what happens to Hassan either.
Furthermore, how can you people do what you’re doing for a website that doesn’t know the difference between the Tees and the Wear?
RaiderRich2001,
I have never been to this website before this incident with Steven Cohen and I couldn’t give a rat’s ass whether it sinks or swims. I get my footy info from the BBC, which, by the way, had no problem immendiately retracting and apologising when one of it’s correspondents made a similar stupid comment about Hillsborough recently.
See? It CAN be resolved, if the party in the wrong has the integrity to admit it.
Baselessly questioning my motives is one thing Rich, but accusing me of being an accomplice to violent threats is quite another. I have made it clear in all my comments here that I condemn such actions. Just because some idiots take it too far, it does not therefore follow that peaceful protest loses it’s legitimacy. It seems to me that you are simply saying that because you are pissed off that your favourite soccer show is on thin ice. That’s a pretty lame motive if you ask me.
I haven’t a clue what went on with Fado in Austin, although they still seem to be advertising a WSD broacast for 5&6 May on their website, but nobody threatened Heinieken Rich. FourFourTwo magazine has stated it’s reasons for severing links with Cohen and it wasn’t due to threats.
I haven’t threatened anyone Rich and I’m terribly sorry if, in your opinion, we’re hurting the image of all soccer fans in the US, that’s just awful. It’s really unacceptable that people would tar everyone with the same brush, like say, for example, when YOU lump all Liverpool fans in the same boat because of the actions of a few. Yeah, that’s just wrong, I agree.
You’ve got this arse about backwards Rich. Kenny Hassan, WSD and US based soccer fans can all move on and enjoy a bright future if a certain Mr. Cohen simply admits he’s wrong and says sorry.
Likening Mr. Cohen to a Holocaust denier is so over-the-top ridiculous, it’s not even worth pointing out the ways in which this in offensive. What bothers me is the way in which people stake out biased, extremist positions on something like Hillsborough. In the rush to beatify those who lost their lives, Liverpool fans become unable to admit that the behavior of their fellow Liverpool fans undoubtedly — at least in some small way — contributed to this. Now this talk of the specific numbers of unticketed spectators or spectators with counterfeited tickets is a red herring. You seriously don’t think even just 50 extra bodies in those areas wouldn’t have had an impact? Yes, the lion’s share of blame for the catastrophe must go to those doing crowd control and organizing the whole thing, but no one can honestly claim that the spectators as an entity are 100 per cent without blame. Yes, those who lost their lives likely were innocent victims, but the fans who shouldn’t have been there bear responsibility as well, along with the authorities running the event. If Mr. Cohen has erred, it is in overstating the degree to which Liverpool supporters are to blame for this.
The danger of attempting to make things like Hillsborough sacrosanct is that it leads to stupidity like the threats to Mr. Cohen’s safety. So please. Tone down the rhetoric, people. You’re doing Liverpool supporters a tremendous disservice with behavior like that, and frankly, you’ll only make Mr. Cohen into a sympathetic figure if stories start appearing of thuggish threats against him.
Jake,
Nobody is defending the idiots who threatened Steven Cohen. I don’t know how I, or anyone else who has contributed to this thread can make that any clearer, so I’m simply not going to address it again. As I said in the post above yours, the deplorable actions of a few morons does not strip legitimacy from the vast majority who have been forceful but civil.
As to your points about Hillsborough itself, I am getting very tired of this, but you, like others are again displaying a specious “common sense” and “everybody knows” attitude.
Please read my post above about the crucial difference between “contributory factor” which is fine, if a little pedantic and “shared responsibility” which is what Cohen insists Liverpool fans have. One thing does not lead to the other, but unfortunately, as you are demonstrating, many casual observers draw that conclusion.
“You seriously don’t think even just 50 extra bodies in those areas wouldn’t have had an impact? “
Is that a serious question? 50 extra people in a crowd of 10,100 could realistically cause 96 people to be crushed to death?
In any case, it is totally irrelevant whether every single one of the 10,100 fans in the Leppings Lane end had tickets or not. If you take about half of those people and direct them into an area designed for about a quarter and , due to the design of the stadium, they are unable to see that there is no room for them – guess what happens. It’s not rocket science, and it really amazes me how so many people strggle to understand. The Lepping Lane end was designed to hold 10,100 people, regardless of whether they had a ticket or not, and that is rough;y how many people were there. The problem was where they were directed to go by the police.
Mr. Cohen is a disgrace and must be taken off the air as soon as humanly possible.
To continue to insult the memories of 96 innocent victims is bad enough to but to mislead a naive and ignorant American public is even worse. These poor fans stuck in traffic and then desiring to see the club they die for play in the FA Cup semifinal were killed innocently thanks to police incompetence and the condition of the ground.
But Cohen claims it was all the fault of the Liverpool fans.
I don’t know what kind of laws you have in America, the land of George the killer Bush and the Muslim president Hussien Obama, but in any civilized nation someone like Steven Cohen would be taken off the air.
Yanks don’t deserve football anyhow. It’s too complex and intellectual for a land of Jerry Springer and NASCAR, Bush and Hussien to understand.
Cohen us a typical Yank. No self respecting Brit should associate with him. He would be fired and blackballed from the industry in Britain, not given a forum for his hate mongering. It is ironic Cohen is a Jew, because what he is doing is like Holocaust denial.
I applaud the courage of Christopher Harris and EPL Talk for talking this horrible broadcaster on. You Christopher Harris deserve an award for your entrepreneurial and courageous reporting in the face of ignorant, farcical yanks like the bloke who interviewed Cohen on that MLS show and did not challenge him on Hillsborough preferring to focus on trivial subjects such as thoughts about the Yank league which is worse than the Blue Square Conference or some 18 year old in the Spanish second division.
The Indian bloke who interviewed Cohen should too be booted. How can someone push trivial nonsense topics like MLS, and the stinking US National team ahead of Hillsborough.
Now on Heysel, evidence clearly demonstrates the Juventus fans BEGAN THROWING PIECES OF THE STADIUM at the Liverpool fans. All the LFC support was doing was defending themselves. The loss of life was tragic, but the Juve fans brought it on themselves to a certain degree. No one condones the loss of life, but I certainly do not feel Heysel should be compared in anyway to Hillsborough when the same Juve fans killed were the ones who instigated the violence.
Remember the 96. You’ll never walk alone. The truth will come out. Thank goodness this happened in Sheffield and not in Kansas.
If in Kansas the Taylor Report would have been the Cohen Report.
What is pendantic is making a huge hay out of the semantic difference between contributing factor and shared responsibility which in the context of a legal proceeding would be no difference whatsoever (at least in the US)!
But I want to respond. If justice for the 96 is educating people about the disaster and clearing misconceptions. Go on the F-ing show and talk about it and present your view. Set up more sites educated people.
Your boycott and attack on the sponsors does only one thing. It demonstrates that fans of Liverpool fc can scream very loud when they feel they are wrong. If every sponsor pulls if Cohen is silenced, if they show disappears- it does nothing to change people’s mind. In fact the resulting bitterness will likely hurt that cause. People will say “Scousers, can’t hear the truth!”
I am sympathetic with the justice campaign but this is hopelessly misguided. If you shut down WSD you will only prove that you can yell the loudest and that sponsors are afraid of you. You have not really engaged people to demonstrate you are right.
I really urge you to read some of the works of Martin Luther King and what was attempted during the civil rights movement. Boycotts and protests were not just designed to inflict economic damage or yell loudest but had to have a component that convinced America of the humanity of its black citizens (of which I am one). Your campaign and attitude is missing this all together. You simply want to punish Cohen for holding a widely held opinion you don’t like and stating it.
If WSD and all the sponsors pull, and Cohen apologies and the show disappears you will have gained nothing but feeling good that you punished someone who got it wrong. I have learned more reading the comments about the incident that the foolishness about Steven’s comments. Use it as an opportunity to education. Below I will post the principles of non-violent social change. A guy used them to convince people that blacks were humans in the US. It is not trick to if you actually use them really change hearts and minds about Scousers and the incident.
Principle 1: Nonviolence is a way of life for courageous people.
Principle 2: Nonviolence means seeking friendship and understanding among those who are different from you.
Principle 3: Nonviolence defeats injustice, not people.
Principle 4: Nonviolence holds that suffering can educate and transform people and societies.
Principle 5: Nonviolence chooses loving solutions, not hateful ones.
Principle 6: Nonviolence means the entire universe embraces justice.
In addition to the six principles, Dr. King developed a six-step process to help people bring about social change in a nonviolent way.
Step 1: Gather Information
Learn all you can about the problems you see in your community through the media, social and civic organizations, and by talking to the people involved.
Step 2: Educate Others
Armed with your new knowledge, it is your duty to help those around you, such as your neighbors, relatives, friends and co-workers, better understand the problems facing society. Build a team of people devoted to finding solutions. Be sure to include those who will be directly affected by your work.
Step 3: Remain Committed
Accept that you will face many obstacles and challenges as you and your team try to change society. Agree to encourage and inspire one another along the journey.
Step 4: Peacefully Negotiate
Talk with both sides. go to the people in your community who are in trouble and who are deeply hurt by society’s ills. Also go to those people who are contributing to the breakdown of a peaceful society. Use humor, intelligence and grace to lead to solutions that benefit the greater good.
Step 5: Take Action Peacefully
This step is often used when negotiation fails to produce results, or when people need to draw broader attention to a problem. it can include tactics such as peaceful demonstrations, letter-writing and petition campaign.
Step 6: Reconcile
Keep all actions and negotiations peaceful and constructive. Agree to disagree with some people and with some groups as you work to improve society. Show all involved the benefits of changing, not what they will give up by changing.
Over the years, the King Center has developed training materials to assist people in the application of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.’s principles of nonviolence. By adopting these principles, Intellectual Properties Management, Inc., manager for the King Estate, hopes people will be inspired to keep the dream alive: The dream that all people are created equal.
My point is simple: This is not a fundamentalist, black-and-white issue. It is neither a case of evil police martyring innocent fans nor one of lawless fans bringing calamity on themselves. If, like auto accidents in the States, fault were assigned by percentage, that split would be about 99-1 or 98-2 against the authorities.
Those who try to pin the blame on the supporters are wrong.
Those who argue the spectators were blameless are wrong.
I understand your points. However, there was nothing specious about my argument.
The real problem is that 20 years later, we’re still talking about this, and the discussion is unfortunately tainted in many cases by people’s feelings about a particular football club and its supporters.
Cohen clearly is no fan of the club, and I do believe this leads him to overstate the degree to which the supporters contributed to the events of that day.
I understand why this subject elicits emotional responses from Liverpool supporters, given the unfair way in which the club’s supporters were assigned more than their share of blame.
And the government at the time certainly didn’t endear itself to the footballing public with its handling of the inquiry.
Hence, Hillsborough tends to generate much more discussion and emotion than other — in several cases far deadlier — sporting event disasters. These are the two elements that Americans and younger fans fail to grasp when wondering why such a fuss is made over something that happened so long ago and seemingly should have long since been put to bed.
We won’t rest until cohen is off the air in yankland and out of football completely. only then will the quest for justice move forward.
Shorter LFC JH: I hate America
You know, a little gratitude would be nice, LFC JH. Without the US you’re speaking German and Liverpool would be playing in a German league
Oh, and Obama is not Muslim (Ironically, that’s a lie that comes from Bush supporters), only 20% of Americans liked Bush when he left office (and it’s lower as documents about Gitmo comes out) , no one in the U.S. watches Jerry Springer anymore, and NASCAR’s ratings have fallen to near zero. Why do you counter what you perceive to be lies and stereotypes with lies and stereotypes of your own. Hypocrite of the highest order.
Quote:”I applaud the courage of Christopher Harris and EPL Talk for talking this horrible broadcaster on.”
In other words you admit that Christopher Harris started this and you admit you are threatening people with violence because of it. You futher admit that you approve of violence to anyone who disagrees with your position.
As for Jeremy, you are just as nonsensical as The Gaffer when you say you disapprove of violence. Liverpool fans *automatically* react whenever someone mentions Hillsborough and think nothing of the consequenses. It’s a reflex action. You can’t control yourself. We get the English Premier League over here. We see what happens when Munich-Hillsborough “shouting” matches break out whenever Liverpool. Hell, there’s one of these triggers for every soccer team in Europe. Soccer fans who cheer for U.S. clubs and the MNT are far, far less likely to do this. So basically your comparison between Liverpool fans and U.S. Soccer fans is strictly more America-hating.
Understand this: the only time soccer gets discussed by mainstream sports media, or any media in this country, outside of the World Cup, is if there is fan violence.
“I haven’t a clue what went on with Fado in Austin”
I was there the other day and noticed they took down all the WSD promotional stuff. I asked around. The restaurant owner they had to do it because they were getting death threats from Liverpool fans. They couldn’t afford the additional security, and the response from Austin PD was “typical soccer fans.” If they haven’t taken it off the website yet, it’s only a matter of time.
“nobody threatened Heinieken Rich. FourFourTwo magazine has stated it’s reasons for severing links with Cohen and it wasn’t due to threats.”
Well of course, because if they came out and said they were dissasociating themselves with WSD due to threats someone would have killed them. Jeremy, you’re not fooling anyone.
Jake,
“The real problem is that we are talking about this 20 years later” …
I imagine Mr Trevor Hicks, who posted above, who represented the hundreds of others who were directly affected by the unnecessary death by crushing of their sons, daughters, brothers and sisters etc.. has got better things to be doing at this time. It’s 20 years since they died and I’m very sure it’s deeply upsetting for them all.
What he, and they, certainly don’t need is an idiot, self-confessed anti-Liverpool (in all senses), ranter bladdering on and PUBLICALLY blaming the event on 6-8,000 ticketless fans etc etc … which is all bullshit. Do you not get it my friend ? Cohen made these statements and created all of this stink himself. It’s his problem and he has got to sort it out.
I am not from Liverpool, never been there and I’ve been listening to his show for 6 months now. Even I get annoyed at his constant rubbishing of the City and the People as well as the team and it’s supporters. Well he went too far this time because he effectively blamed Trevor Hicks friends and fellow supporters for their deaths of his daughters. he just bulldozed in and dumped his “opinionated misinformation and spite” on the whole city. They did not need it.
Now he’s unleashed a response that’s coming at him from all angles. It would appear that it’s beginning to affect financial support for the show, he also claims there have been threats on his family etc… which is obviously WRONG.
I liked the show, for what it’s worth. I liked their balls, humour, irreverence and ambition. I have heard a few episodes this week but something is gone now. No-one talks about it, there are no Liverpool supporters with “the knowledge” calling up anymore and i doubt that will change for a very long time. Kenny H, who called him out many times over this has also clammed up.
Personally I feel they should do a proper show on this subject, lance the boil. He should face the people who are upset and not project it out on people like “The gaffer” who simply reported what he said. Maybe he was careless and maybe he was ignorant and maybe he thinks he’s got a point. But he directly affected the very people who most did not need this dumped on them at this time.
So Mr. Cohen, stand up and create a true forum. Invite Trevor Hicks and the people who have been trying to get “Justice for the 96″ on to your show and have the “civilised” discussion you claim you want. Stop running away and hiding behind silence because the stink will just grow anyway.
Sorry for going on so long.
Should say, “the Hillsborough-Munich “shouting” matches whenever Liverpool and Manchester United play.” My bad.
Mark
“What is pendantic is making a huge hay out of the semantic difference between contributing factor and shared responsibility which in the context of a legal proceeding would be no difference whatsoever (at least in the US)!”
Utter rubbish.
In at least two cases a “contributing factor” was an already existing medical condition which made sustained injuries worse. That’s a contributing factor alright. By your own bizaare logic that would mean those people with that medical condition automatically take greater responsibility.
In this case, by “contributing factor”, the only argument that has been put forward that has any basis in reality is the fact that there were fans present. That’s it! Ludicrous! Did drunkenness cause it? No. Did ticketless fans cause it? No. Did bad behaviour cause it? No. It happened because a very, very large group of people, were directed into already full pens, which because of the design of the stadium they could not see were overcrowded. This is utterly irrefutable.
As for the rest of your post – wow! What on earth does MLK have to do with this? You are preaching the merits on non-violent protest to people who are trying, as articulately as possible, to educate the likes of Cohen and others about what happened at Hillsborough.
There may be some idiots who have been threatening to Mr Cohen, I join you in condemning them. But why are you saying this to the likes of Jeremy or myself? Why not tell it to the morons who are supposed to have been doing the threatening? You wouldn’t be grouping us all in together would you? Tarring us all with the same brush? What would Dr King think of that?
Imagine castigating Dr King for the fact that Malcolm X was a militant? If it’s non violent protest you want, you’re preaching to the choir. Stop going on about it.
As for WSD, if it went off the air there would be an opportunity for another show to replace it. Hey you never know, you might get a presenter who knows what he’s talking about.
RaiderRich2001
“As for Jeremy, you are just as nonsensical as The Gaffer when you say you disapprove of violence. Liverpool fans *automatically* react whenever someone mentions Hillsborough and think nothing of the consequenses. It’s a reflex action. You can’t control yourself.”
Someone needs to explain to you the difference between a group of people and an individual person. Your last sentence doesn’t even make any sense. Some fans react violently over things. This Jeremy guy doesn’t seem to though.
“the Hillsborough-Munich “shouting” matches whenever Liverpool and Manchester United play.”
I’ve no reason to defend United fans, besides the fact that there are all individuals and all behave differently in any case. But if you could tell me which game you saw featuring these two teams in the last ten years in which either group of fans were audibly heard doing this it would be news to me. The number of people on each side doing that are tiny and get shouted down by the majority. Stop tarring everybody with the same brush.
“Understand this: the only time soccer gets discussed by mainstream sports media, or any media in this country, outside of the World Cup, is if there is fan violence.”
What a good reason for you know who to shut the hell up about hillsborough, blaming it on the fans. A fantastic argument against Cohen. Well done.
“Well of course, because if they came out and said they were dissasociating themselves with WSD due to threats someone would have killed them. Jeremy, you’re not fooling anyone.”
Read the 4-4-2 special feature on Hillsborough. It’ll show you what they think about it and even better still – you might learn something. They certainly did not need much persuading to sever all ties. Fantastic magazine too.
Joe,
Thanks for the note. My point is that non-violent protest isn’t legit just because it is non-violent. It has clear principles. A number of those are being violated in this case in ways that are harming the cause. I teach this stuff and I print it because most people think like yourself. “i’ve been harmed let’s boycott!” They think this without considering the broader theory of social change which involved multiple forms of engagement.
On contributing factor versus cause. There were a number of events that had occurred there without our incident. Therefore some modicum of behavior of the fans that day “contributed” and helped cause the tragedy. Does that mean the fans were mostly or even in any substantive way responsible, “no”. But it also means that someone who says it should not be crucified-seriously. Have you ever studied TORT law? This case would of course be 98% authorities 2% or less fans. But there is an argument to be made. We don’t know what exactly the precipitating behavior was but there was a way this could not have happened. Is that an excuse, no? Does the exonerate the authorities, no? I understand that the finger pointing of the government and news outlets at the time based on horrible stereotypes about Liverpool fans have caused this defensiveness but there is a point where it goes too far. I don’t think anything I have said is inconsitent with the Taylor report, other incidents are common sense. Sorry and that is me, who has now contributed to the justice campaign under the belief that the authorities were at fault.
“As for WSD, if it went off the air there would be an opportunity for another show to replace it. Hey you never know, you might get a presenter who knows what he’s talking about.”
You know who will replace WSD if they force it off the air? NO ONE. Sirius will just conclude there’s no business putting soccer on the air and probably kill the channel.
Which just shows your ignorance of what it’s like to be a soccer fan here.
1) U.S. Satellite penetration in the U.S. is limited either to bars, most of which only show American sports, or rural areas who don’t care for soccer. Setanta and GOLTV are limited to satellite coverage. Only a handful of cable companies, mostly in the DC area, have these channels, and only on digital tiers.
2) If cable companies *do* show Fox Soccer Channel, they put it on a digital tier that you have to pay extra for.
3) Our major sports network, ESPN, just dumped the UEFA Champions League, may not win the Premier League, and is looking to dump MLS. ESPN is the overwhelmingly dominant general sports media outlet in the U.S. and only gives media attention to the sports it has rights to. The only time ESPN gives soccer any SportsCenter coverage is during the World Cup or when fans go wild.
4) Yes, there’s Spanish-language coverage, the problem is it’s only the Mexican Primera Division or the World Cup. And the kids of Spanish-speakers all grow up, learn English, and end up following one of the “Big 3″ (NFL, NBA, Major League Baseball).
5) Terrestrial sports talk radio and other satellite radio will almost exclusively talk about the Big 3, College Football, College Basketball, and, if you live in the Northeast, Hockey. They will only talk soccer when the World Cup comes around or when soccer fans act up.
Soccer coverage is restricted in the U.S. and there is no guaranteed replacement if a U.S. based soccer program is eliminated.
606 is a good show, Chappers and the Guardian are good podcasts, but they are poor substitutes for WSD because they’re all UK-based, and therefore will never cover MLS or the MNT. Cohen at least grudgingly talks about them because he has to.
Frankly, given Liverpool fans’ knee-jerk your reaction to Cohen, and the complete disregard Liverpool fans have shown for the rights of free speech in America, and for America in general, you have not earned the right to claim it’s a small minority of Liverpool fans. Not until you and every other Liverpool fan who claims to abhor violence provide mountains of concrete proof that you yourself are actively working to prevent Liverpool fans from threatening sponsors. Posting “I’m not responsible” doesn’t make it so, show some action.
By the way, I have yet to find a newsstand in Austin that carries FourFourTwo, but given that it’s a UK publication, it’s MLS coverage is probably not worth reading, so it’s probably not worth my time to pick up. The fact is that their editors don’t have the cojones to stand up to terrorism. And apparently neither does Heineken.
I think the fact that there’s still a “justice group” 20 years after tells you all you need to know…
“What a good reason for you know who to shut the hell up about hillsborough, blaming it on the fans. A fantastic argument against Cohen. Well done.”
So basically, Joe, you care *nothing* for the staff at Fado’s in Austin whose lives were threatened.
raiderrich2001
“you care nothing for the staff at fados in Austin whose lives were threatened”.
If this is seriousquestion, seek help.
“which just shows your ignorance of what it’s like to be a soccer fan here”.
Yes, except I am fanatical about soccer and do in fact live “here”.
4 4 2 features every league on the planet but is naturally British centric.if you are so worried about a lack of mls coverage, why not start your own podcast? You physically could not be any worse than cohen. I’d be happy to make a donation towards a new radio show too.
The anonymous bullying and jeopardizing going on by the Liverpool fans (whichever section it is) is starting to have a counter-reaction; in that people have started to e-mail these sponsors to let them know we do not look kindly on bullying and disregard for free speech here, whether you agree or not with the allegation. You are free to express yourself in a public forum. I am sure 4-4-2 has commercial interests it is weighing carefully, but Fado and 4-4-2 are also going to have a US fan base that will look at them in a certain way. This has been an eye opener for quite a few fans of the game here.
Yes it is a serious question, because you claim to represent justice for the 96, yet you are unwilling to prevent injustice caused by your fans, which makes you just as guilty. If you’re trying to prove it’s a “small minority” of Liverpool fans that are causing the death threats, you’re not off to a good start.
“Seek help” must be Liverpool fan code for “Agree with me or I kill you.”
Quote:”Yes, except I am fanatical about soccer and do in fact live “here””
Then there’s no excuse for your misguided notion that another radio show would replace WSD if it goes off the air. Most decision-makers in the U.S. media are not soccer people like you and me and given the choice would use any excuse to reduce soccer coverage.
“4 4 2 features every league on the planet but is naturally British centric.”
Which means not enough MLS coverage. No thanks. I like the EPL, but I’m a Team USA and MLS fan first.
“if you are so worried about a lack of mls coverage, why not start your own podcast?”
Because I stutter and I have a voice for print.
“I’d be happy to make a donation towards a new radio show too.”
Right. Just like Sean Hannity would be happy to be waterboarded for charity. We’re talking about a radio show, they don’t accept donations, just advertisers. What do you have to advertise that people could possibly want?
Amazing, amazing and SAD. The lack of knowledge displayed on here for a tragic event demonstrates an awful amount of laziness on behalf of the posters. Do your homework people, understand what actually happened and that Hillsborough was an accident waitng to happen because of the way the establishment treated the, generally working class, football follower in the 70’s and 80’s. Herded on to trains and coaches, herded off. Herded into grounds and herded out again. This was the norm and yet we put up with it week in and week out because of the love for our clubs. Hillsborough changed all that forever. A friend of mine lost his 10 year old son at Hillsborough try telling him that Cohen’s remarks should be ignored. All this BS that he’s just an ordinary fan on TV nonsense in that position with the money come’s responsibility.
One final question to ask yourself. Why did vital CCTV footage tapes for the Leppings lane end “disappear” and why were many countless police statements altered?
Oh look, another corporate tool of The Gaffer.
JohnE, nothing that you said gives you the right to send death threats to a person or his advertisers, or look the other way when your fellow fans send death threads to a person or his advertisers. Nor does it give The Gaffer the right to twist your passions for his own greedy ends. Whatever injustice you may feel does not justify injustice on your part.
Great post EPL talk. Nice to see that some people stateside know the truth about Hillsborough. Keep it up.
Knowing the truth isn’t the issue. I think we can all agree Cohen’s statement is wrong. What is also wrong, and what you Liverpool fans steadfastly refuse to stop or prevent others in your fanbase from doing, is the threats and violence committed in their names. You are also wrong for letting a corporate entity like EPLTalk use the 96 to drive you to said violence so he can eliminate a corporate rival.
RaiderRich2001
“JohnE, nothing that you said gives you the right to send death threats to a person or his advertisers, or look the other way when your fellow fans send death threads to a person or his advertisers.”
There you go again with the “you”. Are you American? How would you feel if I said “nothing gives you the right to murder the people Charles Manson did”? He was American too right? Therefore I trust you will be officially apportioning blame to yourself.
I and most other Liverpool fans, participating in other forums, are making it very clear that anything that constitutes a threat will not be tolerated. Other than that what would you suggest we do? The only person who knows the identity of those who have issued threats is Steven Cohen. He should inform the authorities.
Fuuzball
“we do not look kindly on bullying and disregard for free speech here”
Please point me to the particular bit of US law that permits someone to make accusations of manslaughter on a national platform with precisely zero evidence, in direct contradiction of all exhaustive, available facts. Free speech my arse.
“there’s no excuse for your misguided notion that another radio show would replace WSD if it goes off the air”
From what I’ve heard of it, it would be infinitely preferable to listen to static over the airwaves. Or maybe just silence. What about his co-host? He should do his own show, he seems a bit more clued up.
Joe said:
“Please point me to the particular bit of US law that permits someone to make accusations of manslaughter on a national platform with precisely zero evidence, in direct contradiction of all exhaustive, available facts. Free speech my arse.”
You must not get onto discussions about 9-11, the war, any plane accident, etc. People here regularly blame the president, the authorities, the victims, our society, foreigners, citizens, anyone with all sorts of conspiracies and theories. It is called free speech. We don’t censor here and leave it for the court of public opinion to determine how successful you are. Tell Cohen off, but some of the other actions are crossing the line.
Joe, again, if it’s a small minority of Liverpool fans, as you suggest, stop them.
Saying you posted something in a forum isn’t evidence that you’ve done something. And clearly whatever it is you claim to be doing you’re not doing enough of, because people *have* been threatened by Liverpool fans.
Even though you’re being ridiculous, I’ll play along: a jury of Americans convicted Manson, an American judge sentenced Manson, other American judges have rejected his appeals, and still more Americans on the parole board have time and time again rejected Manson’s requests for parole. We’ve done something about Manson. That’s a hell of a lot more than you’ve done about your “small” (allegedly) “minority”
Seeing as how *you* think all Americans are Charles Manson, why do you continue to live here?
“From what I’ve heard of it, it would be infinitely preferable to listen to static over the airwaves.”
So basically you want no U.S.-based national soccer phone-ins, you want no top-flight league that includes teams that Americans can go see without getting jet lag, you want no soccer highlights on ESPN, you want no US Setanta, you want no GOLTV, and you want no Fox Soccer Channel. Why do you live in America again? You do realize you can leave at any time, right?
You like soccer as do I, but unlike you, I want more people to appreciate the beautiful game, not less, and your “small minority” that you won’t rein in is driving people away.
“What about his co-host? He should do his own show, he seems a bit more clued up.”
Well, he’d be better if your “small minority” that you won’t do a damn thing about hadn’t back-stabbed him (figuratively). Why would anyone neutral want to defend the 96 if Liverpool fans are just going to turn on them?
RaiderRich2001
“Joe, again, if it’s a small minority of Liverpool fans, as you suggest, stop them.”
Enlighten me please.
“Seeing as how *you* think all Americans are Charles Manson, why do you continue to live here?”
I don’t really think that. It was an example to highlight the fatuousness of your logic. I love living here, it’s a great country.
“So basically you want no U.S.-based national soccer phone-ins, you want no top-flight league that includes teams that Americans can go see without getting jet lag, you want no soccer highlights on ESPN, you want no US Setanta, you want no GOLTV, and you want no Fox Soccer Channel. Why do you live in America again? You do realize you can leave at any time, right?”
If you’re that desperate for WSD to stay on the air, why not write to Steven Cohen and ask him to apologise? After all you did say “I think we can all agree Cohen’s statement is wrong.” I can genuinely sympathise that you want a show that follows your league. But you’re blaming the wrong people. Blame Steven Cohen.
Steven Cohen stuck his foot in his mouth. His comments were very wrong, but not criminal. “Some” Liverpool fans are sending death threats, that *is* a crime, it’s called “making terroristic threats.” The rest of the Liverpool fans are doing nothing to prevent this, they are accessories. The Gaffer is encouraging this by yelling the soccer equivalent of “‘fire’ in a crowded theater”, that is also a crime, read “Schenk v. U.S.” And since he’s trying to eliminate a business rival like the Mafia try to eliminate theirs, RICO charges would also be appropriate.
I have written Cohen the first time he made those remarks, take a wild guess as to how *that* went.
“I can genuinely sympathise that you want a show that follows your league.”
*My* League? Not *our* league?
Don’t patronize me by saying you sympathize, You may be living here, but if MLS isn’t *your* league also, then you haven’t been around all the battles born and bred U.S. soccer fans have had to fight. From 1950 to 1990 we didn’t qualify for the World Cup. The predecessor to MLS, the NASL, collapsed in 1984 because TV execs didn’t want to put “foreign” sports on TV, and was badly mismanaged by owners who knew nothing about building or marketing the sport. In 1986, NBC only showed two World Cup games on network TV, the opener and the final. I saw Maradona’s run against England on a Spanish station out of San Antonio that was fuzzy because the English speaking networks didn’t know which games to show, nor did they care. In 1992, ESPN had to be forced by UEFA into airing the Champions League in the U.S. by including them in with the Latin American rights they really wanted. In 1990, I had to suffer through a baskeball announcer for TNT try to do soccer commentary. I saw the U.S. host the World Cup in 1994, one of the best, safest, and most well attended World Cups in soccer history, and the first one where every single match was in English, only to see it fade from American sports pages right after Brazil won the trophy. In 1996 we finally, finally got a first division league again, and nobody cared, except for those who were already soccer fans. In 1998, I watched Steve Sampson kill interest in soccer in this country when he ran the MNT into the ground. In 2002, it looked like we were finally getting things on track, and then we ran into Oliver @#$%^%% Kahn. And MLS still had 2 teams go bankrupt despite that. Don’t get me started on 2006, I’m still in therapy because of that World Cup. And I’m still trying to get out the knife David Beckham Incorporated stabbed in our back (speaking of bastard corporations). Not to mention MLS teams can’t seem to get out of their own way when it comes to continental competitions, my Houston Dynamo was the only one to survive the group stages.
I have called cable companies numerous times trying to get soccer channels on my cable system to no avail. I have written ESPN to try and get them to produce a daily soccer show like they have for the major sports and all for naught. I have endured the abuse of Tony Kornheiser, Michael Wilbon, Jim Rome, Colin Cowherd, too many other sports pundits that I don’t have room to name, and other sports fans who think soccer isn’t a real sport, who think soccer fans are violent drunks, and who think soccer players are, well, gay (can’t think of a different word to describe how they think, apologies), to say nothing of European fans who hate us for playing “their” sport. DON’T PATRONIZE ME UNTIL YOU’VE ENDURED WHAT I’VE HAD TO ENDURE, AND DON’T TAKE AWAY ONE OF THE FEW RADIO OUTLETS WE HAVE TO SATISFY YOUR TWISTED SENSE OF JUSTICE!
I have a few points to make:
1) I am wondering if this whole issue is being hijacked by EPL Talk and WSD to satisfy an hidden agenda in trying to corner the Soccer Radio market. Basically, trash one show so that the other show shall prosper.
2) If what Steven Cohen did was a crime then let the US Dept. of Justice handle this. Call the authorities and make your case.
3) If Liverpool fans are making terroristic threats to Steven Cohen then, I’m sorry, some of them need to be arrested on felony charges. I’ve noticed that the laws are a little looser in the Europe than the USA. Such antics may work in Europe, over here you may actually go to jail. There are more constructive ways to vent your displeasure.
4) Do not assume that Americans are naive children that can be manipulated. Present the facts and leave the personal attacks out of it.
I am sure that if the facts are present accurately to Americans, there are no better people to ascertain a fair and reasonable judgement. So, WSD and EPL talk just present the facts, leave out the trash talk, and let the people decide . . .
To all your Liverpool, steven may of stated some wrong facts, but all you guys should GROW UP and move on, instead of threatening his life and family. YoU guys are bafoons. And to the Gaffer,why wont you appear on WSD, clearly Steven appeared to be the better one by appearing on MLS talk, a podcast founded by YOU. To The Gaffer, take a chill pill.
Wow we are still talking about this, amazing. I cant believe people are threatening Cohen,his family and his life, that is just wrong…period. By doing that you difile the memories of the 96 who died that day, way to go. I agree with Tank99, go on WSD Gaffer, Steven had the guts to go on MLS Talk and take a stand right or wrong, do the same.
JohnE 05.02.09 at 3:58 am
It is so sad that you people keep repeating these things without realizing that your so called opponents don’t dispute these points. It makes you realize that any reasoned conversation is absolutely pointless.
Here is the Liverpool supporters letter:
Dear advertiser with World Soccer Daily:
As you are probably aware Mr. Steven Cohen has made unsubstantiated remarks on his radio program about the Hillsborough Disaster of April 15th, 1989. I will try to keep this email as brief as possible.
This subject goes back a couple years when Fox Soccer Channel and Sirius Satellite had Mr. Cohen make on air apologies for past remarks. Obviously those were hollow. He offered to debate at the time and one of our US supporters took charge to debate him. Mr. Cohen went on holiday to Australia and when he came back the debate never happened as he made multiple excuses.
Now a few years later after being pressed to substantiate authoritatively his remarks he instead wants another debate. He won’t get one. The time for debate is over. The facts are known that counters what he claims.
What is left is for Mr. Cohen either to produce the authoritative facts surrounding his remarks which have been asked repeatedly of him or for him to explain to his listeners his version of events is an opinion which has been fabricated without authoritative facts of the tragedy and that he will never again fabricate and lie about the Hillsborough tragedy. And further he will have the apology posted on the World Soccer Daily website and the WSD message board as a permanent link. There is a time limit for this request.
If he does not or can not apologize about the lies he has made then the North American Liverpool supporters groups will take action and call for a boycott of all advertisers of his programs on radio and television.
We did this two years ago and that lead to his apparent “forced” on air apology. So we do carry some clout in this matter.
This is not a free speech issue. Mr. Cohen has every right to say what he wants on air within FCC regulations. However he has crossed the line as far as we are concerned. So he is free to say whatever he wants but with free speech one also needs to understand there are consequences to ones action. The potential boycott is one of those consequences.
Now as advertisers, the marketing departments of Sirius and Fox Soccer channel can give you demographics. Your products fit those demographics that is why you choose to be there. However what you may not be able to quantify is what will a boycott by Liverpool supporters actually mean to you. Let me help you.
Here is a link to the Official Website of Liverpool Football Club and the official branches in North America. You can click on the links for the USA and Canada. There are also sub branches in other cities throughout North America besides the main branches listed:
Liverpoolfc.tv: AIB
Whereas the last boycott was then called off when Mr. Cohen apologized on air, although some members to this day still boycott on their own, this time we will have the capacity for a coordinated effort through the various branch email lists besides the usual message boards on multiple supporter websites and the official website for those who are not members.
Again to quantify what this means to your company, Liverpool Football Club and Manchester United are the two best supported clubs worldwide from the Premier League. This extends to North America as well. The official website of LFC gets more hits than any other club website in the UK.
If you are not selling a similar amount of Liverpool related gear as to what you do with Manchester United that is in part due to those in the USA and Canada who already boycott the advertisers. However this time there will be a permanent boycott put in place if Mr. Cohen does not comply with our request above or if at any time in the future he slips up again as it appears he is likely to do based on recent actions. New advertisers will also be made aware of this policy. Further as this season is winding to an end, we will send out a reminder in August when the new season kicks off and membership dues are collected if the boycott is put in place.
Sincerely,
The North American Liverpool Supporters
(name withheld)
Acting Representative.
CC:
North American Branches
Fox Soccer Channel
Sirius Satellite
World Soccer Daily
Ya so instead of trying to Cohen off the air you lot are trying to get WSD taken off the air, well done. There are those of us who are upset at Cohen but still enjoy the show and dont want to see it go off air. Have you tried sending an email to Nick Geber who is a Liverpool fan and co-owner of WSD?
Per Free Speech: He does have the right to say what he wants, right or wrong. It is no different then a hate group saying thier crap, its wrong but they have the right to say it. Its America, deal with that fact. He is dead wrong but under our Consitution he has the right to say it, why can’t you people get it through your head?
Your behavior is why people are getting so sick of Liverpool fans call for justice, I understand he was wrong but good lord, he isnt about to change his mind. You have made your point, why dont you concentrate on getting Justice back in England instead of going after Cohen, or having some of your lot send death threats to him and his family.
Nice. That still leaves 91(?) other professional UK clubs who’s fans wil not boycott the show, not to mention all the Celtic/Rangers fans. Well done. How are Liverpool the biggest though? Their marketing outside of England has never been the best. I see more of the other “big four” at my university then I do Liverpool. I do agree with Shakira though. How does getting cohen off the air, or any kind of similar actions elsewhere, do anything for “Justice for the 96″? All it does is make LIverpool more hated. More harm then good in my opinion.
Fair play to Jo Church and Trevor Hicks for wading in on this ‘debate’. You’ll never walk alone.
These people lost love ones on that day and this continued ignorance and the fact that nobody has ever been brought to justice is unfathomable for me, how do you think it feels for Trevor who lost not one but both of his daughters that day, or for Gary Church’s family – a 19 year old lad the same age as me (on April 15th 89) and also from Maghull, goes to a match and doesn’t come home. 96 people who died supporting the club they loved because of other people’s ineptitude.
Cohen bleats on about ‘facts’. If he knew the facts he wouldn’t have made his pathetic statements in the first place. Does he base his bile about LFC on the post Hesyel ban? If so whilst yes, Liverpool fans retaliation to continual stonings/coinings by Juve fans and subsequent charge at the Juve fans was unacceptable, this was not the sole reason for the collapse of the wall, nor was it the sole reason for the ban on English clubs. It was the final straw. The behaviour of English fans abroad as a whole over a number of years culminating in Heysel was the reason for the ban. This includes his ‘beloved’ Chelsea (or whoever he’s supporting this week), Everton, Arsenal, Man U, etc. That was a culture in those days. Thankfully that sort of behaviour is less prevalent in England than it used to be but is now more common place in Europe without getting the column inches because hooliganism is and probably always will be deemed to be an English disease. I’ve always been a big believer that if you go to a match, or into any situation for that matter, looking for trouble you’ll get it. Hillsborough however was not down to hooligan behaviour. He’s probably forgotten that.
Does he really believe that Hillsborough was safe? If so he’s wrong. There’s video and well documented evidence to say otherwise, including the crush at Spurs vs Wolves. He used to be a Spurs fan, or was it Arsenal, has he forgotten this because it fails to fit his agenda.
He claims in that audio snippet that Hillsborough is the sole reason he dislikes LFC/LFC fans. What possible bearing could it have had on his life to instill this hatred? Did he prefer to stand at matches? I know I didn’t. Does he think that the British Government opening ’secret’ files now is for their benefit so they can turn around and say, ‘oh look it was Liverpool fans after all’? Does he not feel the need to question why medical assistance was not forthcoming to those dying? There are many reasons he’s missing the point because it fails to fit his agenda.
He quite clearly doesn’t understand the culture of football, then or now, although he professes to. If he did he wouldn’t be switching teams like he changes his pants.
We don’t need to threaten Cohen’s life – those who do have let their passion run riot. It serves no purpose and shouldn’t be considered. But the companies and supporters of his business(es) need to know they are supporting a liar and a bigot and they need to know how badly that will reflect on their brands and that their brands in turn will be boycotted, much like S*n was and is.
We wouldn’t give a holocaust denier, a racist or sexist the time of day, why give Cohen any time. Heineken have already said they are withdrawing their support, as are New England Revolution and FourFourTwo Magazine. Setanta didn’t run his ads this weekend. Sirius, iTunes and Fox Soccer should follow suit. Hit him where it hurts, his pocket, maybe then he’ll educate himself but I doubt it, he’ll just manufacture one more reason to hate LFC fans and once again won’t look at the root cause.
Gary Church would be 38 now. Why should his family forget that? They shouldn’t but they should be given answers. They and the families of the other 95 sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, husbands and wives deserve justice.
JFT96.
Wow so WSD lost Steve Nicol and the NE Revolution, big deal. What would they tell him, how to choke in a third consecutive MLS cup? THe JFT 96 are not out for justice this is a personal vendetta against Steven and its sad. What about all those people who have lodged death threats against him and his family, is that your so called Justice. I’m no fan of Cohen but actions by Liverpool fans have disgusted me more and I for one hope your personal campaign fails to take him off the air.
I fail to see why the fact that the Gaffer is a competitor means he shouldn’t be able to comment about Steven Cohen’s Hillsborough comments. If anything Cohen threw gas on the fire first when he made what he knew would be inflammatory comments on the 20th anniversary of the tragic event. I would say that is the equivalent of yelling fire in crowded theater, Cohen knew those comments would rile up Liverpool fans. I’d say that he got exactly the reaction he was looking for. Questioning the veracity of a competitor’s statement’s is not a RICO violation. This idea that you have RaiderRich that the Gaffer’s actions are criminal is quite bizarre.
If the Liverpool fans aren’t allowed to boycott sponsors of the show, try to get an apology out of Cohen, spread the word about Cohen’s comments, defend the supporters who were that day, or even just suggest to people that they read some of the actual established facts for them self, what exactly are the acceptable methods available to them to demonstrate their displeasure?
This all started because of Cohen’s personal vendetta against Liverpool fans. Yes, he does have the right to say whatever he wants to as long as it is not slanderous or likely to incite immediate violence/harm towards someone, and even then slander is not a criminal offense in this country, it could only be taken to civil court. But that means Liverpool fans also have that same right to free speech. They have the right to call him out on it, they have the right to write to his sponsors, and they have the right to send him emails that hurt his feelings, because FYI “i hope you die” is not a death threat. It’s not a nice thing to say, but it does not constitute a death threat. I am sure that some people have set threatening emails, some that may even constitute death threats in a court of law, but I am VERY curious as to how many there actually were, the way Cohen goes on you might think every email he gets from angry Liverpool fan is a death threat. And Cohen is also an idiot for saying that if anything happens to him it would be on the gaffer’s hands. Nothing in the 2 posts that were posted here incite any violence. Seems to me Cohen would like to limit the gaffer’s free speech because he doesn’t like what was said. Death threats are wrong and anyone that has actually made a death threat should be punished according to the law. Although I’m not sure what exactly other Liverpool fans are actually supposed to DO to stop some moron making death threats.
As for why doesn’t the Gaffer go on WSD to debate Cohen, I don’t see anything wrong with asking for Cohen to apologize for making his comments first. He made false statements, it seems like a reasonable request. I still think it’s pretty obvious that Cohen is not in anyway interested in changing his views and a debate would be pointless.
I am not getting sick of Liverpool fans and they have not disgusted me with their tactics. I for one admire the solidarity they are showing regarding the issue.
The Liverpool supporters here are seeking censorship; plain and simple.
I hope they find out it does not work that way in the US.
Debate it on the show, but writing sponsors because you do not like what he said is against the core values of this country.
With this logic, they would be shutting down every platform that is controversial or contentious everywhere.
To all you Liverpool fans, you guys should be instead focusing your energies on finding justice for the 96 lost, eg: like get the police to say sorry, rather than trying to get WSD off air. Steven perhaps made some ill informed comments but all your liverpool fans have taken your anger way to far. How is attacking steven finding justice. The GAFFER, do us a favour and admit you are a liverpool fan.
What Justice for the 96 is wanted by die hard liverpool fans?, i still don’t get it.
Fuuzball, Don Imus would probably tell you it does work that way.
They have the right to write to sponsors, sponsors have the right to decide for themselves whether they want to listen or whether they want to continue doing business with Cohen. That’s not censorship, that’s capitalism.
Sam,
First of all, huge difference with Don Imus is that it is not in a call-in show, but a one-way comment stream, so not too many choices.
Still, a lot of people did not like attacking the sponsors for Don Imus. People should have gone on his show (if they could) and let him know their thoughts on the face of it. The way they made it taboo and a subject you can not touch left an unsettling feeling in many people’s stomachs. Sharpton is seriously disliked precisely because he uses these tactics. I am a minority, full disclosure.
You are free to do whatever you like, but like Sharpton, you are giving yourselves a reputation here.
Sigh…
I could respond in detail to these latest comments, but seriously, why bother? This is a totally futile exercise as none of us are going to budge. I have better things to do with my time than pointless internet bickering. Unlike you Mark, when I say that I don’t want to argue any more and that these are my “final thoughts”, I actually mean it…
Mark – You’re a big fan of Martin Luther King. I get it. Please spare us the Cliff notes on his teachings.
I am capable of deciding for myself what is moral and immoral and, in any case, I see very little in what we’re doing that violates Dr. King’s principles anyway. I have repeatedly rejected the threats of violence to Steven Cohen and no matter how often you try to associate me with them, I believe they no more de-legitimize this boycott than the violent actions of the Black Panthers did to Dr. King.
Jake – I agree with 99% of what you said there (in post #210), but unlike Steven Cohen, I’m not going to take that 1% where I disagree, exaggerate it, blow it out of all proportion and draw unsustainable conclusions from it, simply because I have an irrational hatred in my heart.
Raider Rich – Your angry posts seem to me to be entirely motivated by your love of soccer and your desire to keep WSD on the air. While this seems a little off-kilter to me Rich, I can understand it. Soccer won’t disappear in the US because Steven Cohen gets fired Rich.
You ask us to try and stop the idiots from threatening Steven Cohen, but surely, as at Hillsborough, that’s the police’s job? But ok, if you insist, ask Steven Cohen to forward me the email addresses of those who threatened him and I’ll do my best. I’ve posted comments here and elsewhere condemning them, including in my emails to Steven and his sponsors, but if you think I can do more, send me their emails.
YNWA
Now the Steven supporters are upset that those of us that don’t agree with his comments are emailing and boycotting?!?! What happened to that “freedom” that allows him to say whatever the hell he wants? That doesn’t apply to us too?
If he can go on the air and say things that he hasn’t seen with his eyes and has no credible evidence to backup (even though credible sources such as BBC have offered evidence contrary to his opinion), then I can most definitely email his sponsors to state my opinion too.
We will be emailing and boycotting until we get an apology from him (or at least an offering of some evidence that he can cite to backup his claims).
Oh, and let’s be serious here Raider Rich… soccer will not cease to be just because WSD loses sponsors or even goes off the air. Give us a little credit please.
Fuuzball
“The Liverpool supporters here are seeking censorship; plain and simple.
I hope they find out it does not work that way in the US.
Debate it on the show, but writing sponsors because you do not like what he said is against the core values of this country.”
You sir, are a hypocrite.
You deplore “censorship” yet condemn those who write to sponsors as “against the core values of this country”. That is a staggering contradiction.
If you want people to call the show and “debate” (debate a disaster!) a guy who has shown himself impervious to reason, and has control of the off switch on any incoming call, then you take us for fools.
Please read the following, then try and understand why someone would not want to “debate” this, in soundbite form, for thirty seconds, with an Orangutan presenter.
Taylor Report Paragraph 200
“the police witnesses who most impressed me did not consider the number of ticketless fans to be inappropriately large. This accords with two other sources of evidence.”
Paragraph 201
“First, there was a wide range of witnesses who observed inside the ground that the Liverpool end was at a late stage well below capacity save for pens 3 and 4. ..wing pens were sparse…The match being a sell out, there were clearly many ticket holders to come, and they could account for the large crowd still outside the turnstiles. Had the liverpool end been full by 2.40pm one could have inferred that much or most of the large crowd outside lacked tickets.”
Paragraph 202
“Secondly, such figures as are available from the clubs electronic monitoring system and from analyses by the HSE suggests that no great number entered without tickets. They show that the number who passed through turnstiles A to G plus those who had entered through the gate C roughly equalled the terrace capacity for which tickets had been sold…. The figures do suggest that there was not a very significant body of ticketless fans in the crowd which built up.”
So it had nothing to do with fans trying to get in without tickets. To insist that it was is to show that you don’t know what you are talking about. A brief summary of what WAS the cause follows
First some background on the kind of crowd control policy that was used
Talyor Report Paragraph 175
“Over the years, spectators have come to accept conditions which are often very uncomfortable and not infrequently downright dangerous. They are subjected to buffering and squeezing to get in and out of the terraces. They are packed tightly and exposed to surging and swaying during the match. They put up with these conditions because they are devoted to the game and there is little they can do about them. They believe the discomfort will pass and nothing untoward will happen. Usually that is the case and they are reassured by it…The practice (of football clubs) has been to pack them in on the assumption that if they are prepared to put up with it the conditions must be tolerable.”
Paragraph 180
“The tendency has been to allow the pens to fill until the fans complain or show signs of discomfort. If the density at the front appeared less than at the back, the Tannoy would announce fans to move forward to make room for more. The evidence before the enquiry..shows there have been frequent occasions when the packing on terraces, not only at Hillsborough, has caused discomfort and sometimes, for brief periods, fear. Usually the surge recedes, the sway returns, the pressure eases and the incident passes unrecorded.”
And now what actually happened in this case…
Paragraph 62
“Up to this time (2.30 pm), despite the large mass outside the turnstiles and the numbers still approaching, there was still no panic in the crowd; no perception of crisis by the police. In the control room Mr Murray, who could see Leppings lane on the video, advised Chief Superintendent Duckenfield that they would get everyone in by 3.00 pm. Mr Duckenfield reaffirmed the policy about a delayed kickoff. It would be ordered only if there was some major external factor such as fog on the Pennines or delay on the motorway, not if spectators merely turned up late in large numbers….(from paragraph 192) Whether those who arrived late was much debated. The ticket simply required it’s holder to take up his position 15 minutes before kick off.”
Paragraph 197
“Superintendent Marshall and other officers criticised the crowd as uncooperative because police exhortations to stop pushing and to ease back were not heeded. How could they be? In that crush most people had no control over their movements at all. Two incidents with police horses illustrate the point…there were eyewitness accounts of a horse being physically lifted off it’s feet by the crowd. That occurred, as the police accepted, without malice or intent but as an involuntary consequence of crowd pressure which those by the horse’s flanks could not resist any more than the horse itself.”
Paragraph 64
“Meanwhile the crowd grew at the leppings lane entrance. As more arrived at the back the crush grew worse. Entry to the turnstiles became more difficult…Arrivals at the back exceeded deliveries through the turnstiles, so the build up increased. The mounted officers were surrounded by a dense mass of people and became ineffective.”
Paragraph 66
“It was clear the crowd could not pass through the turnstiles by 3.00pm. Police constable Buxton radioed from the Landrover to control asking that kickoff be postponed. The suggestion was acknowledged but rejected.”
Paragraph 231
“Planning apart, it should have been clear in the control room where there was a view of the pens and of the crowd at the turnstiles that the tunnel had to be closed. If orders has been given to that effect when gate C was opened the fans could have been directed to the empty areas of the wings and this disaster could still have been avoided. Failure to give that order was blunder of the first magnitude.”
For those that could get inside the stadium, read the following
Paragraph 44
“Those entering through turnstiles A to G had three options once inside the ground. They could by moving to the right go round the south end of the west stand and gain entry into pens 1 and 2. They could go through the gap in the dividing wall towards the concourse behind turnstiles 11 to 16 and then round the north end of the west stand into pens 6 and 7. However there were no conspicuous signs inviting them to take either of those courses. The obvious way was straight ahead of the turnstiles where a tunnel under the middle of the west stand gave access to pens 3 and 4. Above the entrance in large letters was the word “Standing” and a large letter B. Thus B ticket holders were drawn towards the tunnel.”
Paragraph 171
“At Cup semi finals.. all the pens were opened from the start and the policy was to let fans “find their own level”. This phrase was repeated again and again by police officers at the inquiry. What it meant was that no specific direction was given to fans entering through the turnstiles. They were free to go wherever they wished on the terraces. If they became uncomfortable or wished for any other reason to move their position, then theoretically they could move elsewhere. In this was it was hoped that the fans on the terraces would level themselves out and that the distribution would be achieved without police intervention. On these occasions the gates at the top of the radial fences were locked in the open position. It was sought to argue, therefore, that there was freedom of movement from one pen to another enabling fans to “find their level”.”
Paragraph 172
“This argument was bad both in theory and in practice, In theory, the whole object of radial fences had been to achieve even distribution by directing fans into desired positions. To say then that they could move freely from one pen to another would defeat the object and enable fans to go from a less popular to a more popular area without inhibition. In practice this did not happen because the position and size of the gates was such that once a substantial number of spectators were in, the gates were unnoticeable and inaccessible especially to those towards the front who might have most need of them”.
Paragraph 183
“…Whilst in theory the police would intervene if a pen became “full”, in practice they permitted the test of fullness to be what the fans would tolerate”.
Paragraph 184
“By 2.52 pm when gate C was opened, pens 3 and 4 were over-full even by this test. Many were uncomfortable. To allow any more into those pens was likely to cause injuries; to allow in a large stream was courting disaster.”
Paragraph 244
“..pens 3 and 4 were becoming more and more crowded…fans were showing and signalling distress. none of this was seen or recognised in the control room”.
Paragraph 250
“Mr Motson, the BBC commentator, recognised and said that the trouble seemed to be overcrowding and not misbehaviour.”
Paragraph 255
“Many fans who escaped onto the pitch alive were in a state of collapse or close to it. Most of those who retained their strength strove magnificently to assist the victims. They helped pull them clear; they helped with first aid; they helped carry the improvised stretchers.”
Paragraph 257
“Before this inquiry began, there were stories reported in the press, and said to have emanated from police officers present at the match, of “mass drunkenness”. It was said that drunken fans urinated on the police while they were pulling the dead and injured out, that others had even urinated on the bodies of the dead and stolen their belongings. Not a single witness was called before the inquiry to support any of those allegations though every opportunity was afforded for any of the represented parties to have any witness called whom they wished. Those who made ‘the allegations’ would have done better to hold their peace.”
Paragraph 279
“In all some 65 police officers gave oral evidence at the inquiry, Sadly I must report that for the most part the quality of their evidence was in inverse proportion to their rank.”
Paragraph 280
“With some notable exceptions, the senior police officers in command were defensive and evasive witnesses.”
Paragraph 283
“Most surprisingly he (Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield) gave Mr Kelly and others reason to think there had been an inrush due to Liverpool fans forcing open a gate. This was not only untruthful, it set off a widely reported allegation against the supporters which caused grave offence and distress.”
Paragraph 285
“It is a matter of regret that at the hearing, and in their submissions, The South Yorkshire Police were not prepared to concede they were in any respect at fault in what had occurred”.
I would strongly advise anyone who cares about the sport of football to read the Taylor report (Chen says he has not read it!!!!!!). Unquestionably, some fans wee guilty of despicable behaviour before during and after this incident, and not just Liverpool fans. To suggest however, that the behaviour of Liverpool fans was the cause of this disaster is flat out wrong.
If anyone else wishes to invoke the notion that Cohen has freedom of speech, is entitled to an opinion, that America is a free country or any other such defence, then they must also extend that freedom to those who object. If Cohen uses free speech as a justification for what he has said, it is profoundly contradictory to then castigate the host of this web site for speaking out in disagreement. It also a fundamental right of anyone who so wishes to not listen to his show any more, and to write to his sponsors informing them of what was said.
Cheers
Joe
You all need to grow up and move on, Cohen is not going to change his stance, he hasnt in three years and wont now. Nothing anyone says here is going to change minds about how they feel and it is going to keep going round and round with no solution. Its time to move on and discuss real football and let this topic lie, but I doubt that will happen.